GWR Brake Van allocations

[drduncan]

Dear all,

 

In many pictures of GWR 'Toad' brake vans a depot name is clearly visible on the wagon side.  Can anyone shed light on which brake vans were allocated to which depots?  I'm very interested in the 1900-1914 period, especially those brake vans (Diagram number and running numbers) that were allocated to Cornwall.  The MRC's new EM gauge China Clay layout 'Empire Mills' will need several and any help you might be able to give will be much appreciated. 

 

Regards

 

drduncan

[Adrian Wintle]

There is a file of sample allocations linked here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html - see the link at the bottom. Pretty much all are post-grouping, though.

 

Adrian

Edited June 4, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[drduncan]

HI Adrian,

 

Thanks for the info, but you are quite right its almost all late grouping and BR.  I shall continue the hunt!

 

Regards

 

Duncan

[Andy Keane]

On 04/06/2014 at 16:29, drduncan said:

HI Adrian,

 

Thanks for the info, but you are quite right its almost all late grouping and BR.  I shall continue the hunt!

 

Regards

 

Duncan

Duncan

did you ever get details of toad allocations in Cornwall? The gwr org list gives very few for the south west.

regards

 

Andy

[Neal Ball]

15 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Duncan

did you ever get details of toad allocations in Cornwall? The gwr org list gives very few for the south west.

regards

 

Andy

Looking at that link above, the person who might be able to help you is @Miss Prism who runs that site.

[Hal Nail]

How much did vans move around? There are plenty of allocations in that list dated 1940. Would it be reasonable to assume those same vans would have been there earlier as well or were they regularly reallocated like locos?

[Miss Prism]

This is an undocumented area, so your guess is as good as mine, but my view is that there wouldn't be much point in moving brake vans around, except of course for a rare repaint. Watlington's venerable AA3 seems to have been on the branch for decades.

[The Stationmaster]

I do wonder to what extent brakevans carried depot names in the years when they were alloocated to individual Guards - who held the key to the rim lock on the door of their van although a spare key at the Guard's home depot was held for a relief Guard when the 'owner' Guard was on leave or otherwise not available for duty. 

 

This situation was finally broken down by teh demands and operating situation in WWII when, for example, a train might sit, or not move very far along, a g Goods Line for hours on end and the Guard's turn of duty was up and he had to be relieved.  Officially the situation changed in September 1943 when freight brakevans ceased to be allocated to individual Guards and effectively - in some respects - could be used by any Guards and no longer had to be returned whence they had come .   At this time the 'RU' (Restricted User) branding was introduced for vans which were to kept at a location for specific workings although at that time these were described as 'local services'. Logically if a van was marked RU then it would perhaps be equally logically marked with the name of the location which was the Restricted User.? 

 

However a clue to a possibly different conclusion regarding depot allocations appearing on freight brakevans was the cancellation in September 1943 of the Instruction that freight brakevans were to be returned to their home depot by the most expeditious means on either booked or additional trains and were to be sent sent 'light' if no alternative was available.  Obviously however sufficient vans would have been allocated rt to a location to cover its booked working and probably with an element of spares in order to cover any additional trains.

 

Later - regrettably at a. date I cannot establish but definitely post war, and possibly as late as the early 1950s, the RU marking was also noted as applying to longer distance workings - which were sometimes painted in detail on the 'vans (detailing the workings appears not to have been universal judging by the wording of the relevant Instruction but that might simply be down to the way the Instruction was worded).

[hmrspaul]

32 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

the RU marking was also noted as applying to longer distance workings - which were sometimes painted in detail on the 'vans (detailing the workings appears not to have been universal judging by the wording of the relevant Instruction but that might simply be down to the way the Instruction was worded).

 

And that RU with detailed use persisted for a long time - appearing on a batch of BR brake vans built in 1962

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakediag507/eca654ab   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakediag507/e1ca69721  It is likely these replaced a GWR design van when the use of those was being frowned on. There are details of more of them in Eric Gents book on BR vans published by the HMRS.

 

Paul

 

[br2975]

Through the 70s R.U. vans were still quite common here in "God's Country" where they were looked after by the late Johnny Wilkins, better known apparently as "Johnny Chopsticks" an eccentric who I'm told kept the vans spotless and obtained kindling for the van stoves, in the local woods.

.

Local vans carried a variety of instructions, which included;

.

"Radyr Junc. - For Cardiff Valleys Only" - not so common.

and / or

"Radyr Junc. R.U. - For Cardiff Valleys Only" - the most common.

"Radyr Junc. To Work Radyr, Maerdy & Cwmbargoed Only"

"Radyr Junc. To work between Maerdy & Cwmaman ,Cardiff Valleys Only"

"Return to Radyr"

.

Other  marked vans still ran in the area, at places like Llantrisant, Aberdare, 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by br2975

[The Stationmaster]

Officially RU was discontinued c.1967 but if br2975 saw some around after that I'm not at all surprised.  However when I tried to get our 'protected' brakevans at Radyr branded RU in 1973 I was told by the management at Cathays (where the 'vans were given their 'protection' alterations) that they were not allowed to paint RU on brakevans.  And they said that they couldn't change their minds even if my staff refused to shunt Cathays shops when they found out who had turned it down, i.e. threats were no more effective than nice friendly chats

 

We therefore did our level best to stop Severn Tunnel and Margam Guards getting their thieving hands on them.

[drduncan]

On 31/12/2021 at 21:34, Andy Keane said:

Duncan

did you ever get details of toad allocations in Cornwall? The gwr org list gives very few for the south west.

regards

 

Andy

I’m afraid not.

Duncan

[Andy Keane]

25 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I’m afraid not.

Duncan

And Miss Prism says the the Bachmann Gwinear Road Toad number is made up so little progress on that either - I also talked to Kernow Model centre and they could not help on where they got the markings for their van either.

[Miss Prism]

Seen on a withdrawn Truro-allocated van 56399 (an AA3), but I can't make out one word: "To work only on the 11 30am Truro to ???? & back."

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Miss Prism
image reinstated

[K14]

48 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Seen on a withdrawn Truro-allocated van 56399 (an AA3), but I can't make out one word: "To work only on the 11 30am Truro to ???? & back."

 

 

Savernake?

[Hal Nail]

Could you post the picture less enlarged - might actually be clearer.

[Miss Prism]

53 minutes ago, K14 said:

Savernake?

 

Strangely enough, the picture is taken at Savernake High Level. But it's difficult to imagine a freight service from Truro to Savernake,

[Miss Prism]

34 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Could you post the picture less enlarged - might actually be clearer.

 

It's the highest resolution I have.

[Hal Nail]

I've found that photo on twitter and the blurb there says it was used between Truro and Falmouth. I could be convinced by "FA" but the rest is a mush.

 

Interestingly though, it also says it was condemned at Savernake!

[Miss Prism]

It's the same picture. Falmouth is logical, but it really does not look like 'Falmouth'.

[Hal Nail]

4 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

It's the same picture. Falmouth is logical, but it really does not look like 'Falmouth'.

No, agreed!

 

I did wonder if the end is an abbrevation of dock, maybe underlined? I've seen "ST" with a half height T underlined for St Blazey.

[simonmcp]

Just to confuse the issue, is it DUNMERE? Could be on a clay working.

[Hal Nail]

I think it's highly unlikely to have worked far. For anything involving that length of mainline use, surely they would have just provided a more current van?

 

Also I'm not sure if Western vans would have gone beyond the exchange sidings at Boscarne?

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Hal Nail

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/03/2022 at 19:45, Miss Prism said:

Seen on a withdrawn Truro-allocated van 56399 (an AA3), but I can't make out one word: "To work only on the 11 30am Truro to ???? & back."

 

 

Any idea of the date Miss P?  Looking in Service Timetables for an 11.30 from Truro might well provide a simple answer.

Edited March 18, 2022 by The Stationmaster
Typo

[Miss Prism]

I understand the date of the pic is 'early 60s'. The van is in a rake of withdrawn vehicles on one of the roads at Savernake High Level, so doesn't really indicate how 'old' the lettering is.