Andy Reichert Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Join MERG. You have to build the control boards (does 4 motors) yourself but they have all the other stuff. Works out cheap even with the membership. Check out their website. I did, although I have not kept my membership up due to needing to concentrate on many other situations in my life. I was asking in terms of the actual monetary outlay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I was going to use Mega Points Controller but we (our Club) needed only one more point to be controlled over the 12 on their board so it became a lot more expensive per point. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I did, although I have not kept my membership up due to needing to concentrate on many other situations in my life. I was asking in terms of the actual monetary outlay. Depending on your requirements, all prices are on their website. Www.merg.org.uk Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Depending on your requirements, all prices are on their website. Www.merg.org.uk Dave Sorry. The price list won't tell you you need a computer or a £20 setter to sett all the servos. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon H Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Sorry. The price list won't tell you you need a computer or a £20 setter to sett all the servos. Presumably you do have a computer available, or you wouldn't be able to tell us this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Presumably you do have a computer available, or you wouldn't be able to tell us this... No, I found the info from research on the instructions etc on line before I joined. I will be using the £20 'setter' as the layout is at our club and mine is a desk top PC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think that's the trouble with using servos. No one really knows what they actually cost for single turnout compared to a normal point motor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted June 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think that's the trouble with using servos. No one really knows what they actually cost for single turnout compared to a normal point motor. Why do you say that? You can compare the cost of a servo with say a Tortoise (or Seep/Peco) point motor. Whether you need additional equipment will depend entirely on the rest of your set up (which is the same whichever solution you use). Even including the ancillary equipment you can still work out the cost per point of different options including servos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think that's the trouble with using servos. No one really knows what they actually cost for single turnout compared to a normal point motor.There is no one answer to this, everyone will need to do a different calculation depending on their circumstances. There will be a substantial difference depending on use of commercial or DIY/kit driver boards, and commercial, kit or DIY mountings. Also some costs are one offs so vary, on a per point basis depending on how many servos are needed. If you use DIY drivers, eg from MERG kits and home made mountings, and you have enough points to spread out the fixed costs then you can be looking at £5 per point. Most other point motors are rather more. If you go commercial with the likes of Peco the costings will be totally different. None of this is difficult, just needs a bit of research to work out. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think that's the trouble with using servos. No one really knows what they actually cost for single turnout compared to a normal point motor. Using Digikeijs equipment, a quad servo decoder with servos is 55 euros http://www.digikeijs.com/complete-set-including-1x-servo-decoder-4x-mini-servo-and-4x-50cm-extension-cable.html and the interface boards to do the polarity switching are 20 euros http://www.digikeijs.com/dr4102-points-crossing-interface.html giving a cost of 19 euros per point for DCC control (exclusive of servo bracket and actuator wire) You could also do the same with an ESU Switchpilot Servo (27 euros) http://www.esu.eu/en/products/switchpilot/switchpilot-servo-v20/ and a Switchpilot Extension (27 euros) http://www.esu.eu/en/products/switchpilot/switchpilot-extension/ and 4 servos (13.50 euros ea.) http://www.esu.eu/en/products/switchpilot/precision-servo-motor/ (although you could source your own servos) for a cost of 27 euros per point for DCC control, including brackets and actuator wire. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Why do you say that? You can compare the cost of a servo with say a Tortoise (or Seep/Peco) point motor. Whether you need additional equipment will depend entirely on the rest of your set up (which is the same whichever solution you use). Even including the ancillary equipment you can still work out the cost per point of different options including servos. IMHO, it's not quite that simple. You can operate a simple stall point motor with a toggle switch and a DC voltage supply (say 12 v). Which you'd need to control and power your servo electronics anyway. The additional electronics to give a variable pulse width for servo movement/position control is absolutely necessary for a basic servo to operate at all. You can somewhat reduce the cost of that by having a multi-servo controller, but you can't eliminate it. On top of that, you will need extra stuff in the electronics to provide any switched frog power. Andy Edited June 11, 2015 by Andy Reichert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only-Me Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I have this installed on Tormouth, running through Railroad & Co, works wonderfully... Only setup issue I found was you need to centre all the servos before you connect anything. Power it off, and check then put on the plastic arms in the centre of your travel... Used it for N gauge semaphores which have a tiny throw and works superbly on DCC Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 IMHO, it's not quite that simple. You can operate a simple stall point motor with a toggle switch and a DC voltage supply (say 12 v). Which you'd need to control and power your servo electronics anyway. The additional electronics to give a variable pulse width for servo movement/position control is absolutely necessary for a basic servo to operate at all. You can somewhat reduce the cost of that by having a multi-servo controller, but you can't eliminate it. On top of that, you will need extra stuff in the electronics to provide any switched frog power. Andy No need for electronics to control frog polarity, Andy. Just some tiny micro switches. I'm sure you are familiar with this method so you postings seem a little un-called for to me. It sounds as if you have something against using servos. You are quite capable of looking at the MERG site and other posts on RMWeb and find out for yourself exactly what is needed and until you make the effort, surely you should refrain from the sort of statements you have already made above. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think we need CompareTheServo.com! Based on four points with DCC control and including frog switching and excluding the servo and bracket, I make the per point cost something in the region of:- Peco Smartswitch =( £11.64 + £23.27) / 4 + £8.42 = £17.15 ESU Switchpilot = (£25.38 + £25.38) / 4 = £12.69 Signalist SC2 = £47.00 / 4 = £11.75 Add around £2 to this cost for the servo and with no microswitch to mount you can just screw the servo to a couple of blocks of wood in lieu of a bracket. Some of these prices compare very favourably to using a slow motion stall motors with a DCC accessory decoder (I will let someone else give the price of that solution) and all have the advantage of highly reliable relay switching of the frog. You can of course make further savings by using a microswitch to switch the frog at the cost of a more complex installation procedure and probably the requirement of a proper servo bracket. Much of the cost advantage of servos in this scenario rely on the servo controller being integrated with the the DCC decoder, so if you are not DCC there is less cost advantage with going servo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think we need CompareTheServo.com! Based on four points with DCC control and including frog switching and excluding the servo and bracket, I make the per point cost something in the region of:- Peco Smartswitch =( £11.64 + £23.27) / 4 + £8.42 = £17.15 ESU Switchpilot = (£25.38 + £25.38) / 4 = £12.69 Signalist SC2 = £47.00 / 4 = £11.75 Add around £2 to this cost for the servo and with no microswitch to mount you can just screw the servo to a couple of blocks of wood in lieu of a bracket. Some of these prices compare very favourably to using a slow motion stall motors with a DCC accessory decoder (I will let someone else give the price of that solution) and all have the advantage of highly reliable relay switching of the frog. You can of course make further savings by using a microswitch to switch the frog at the cost of a more complex installation procedure and probably the requirement of a proper servo bracket. Much of the cost advantage of servos in this scenario rely on the servo controller being integrated with the the DCC decoder, so if you are not DCC there is less cost advantage with going servo. Digikeijs DR40024 = (£20.96 + £17.50) / 4 = £9.62 Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I happily use servos in my robotics and animation endeavours. Marvelous value for the prices they cost today. OTOH, having to buy and mount micro switches to get frog polarity is IMHO, getting close to scratch building, on top of being yet another additional cost vs. the simple stall motor having the contacts built in. I'm a professional technologist, so I'm just not into technology for the sake of it, nor at any price. My employers always want the lowest production cost consistent with meeting the application specification. So it's perfectly reasonable and proper for modelling consumers to have the same info. Andy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 As I said above, the commercial solutions are expensive compared to a DIY/MERG solution. The original request for a comparison did not specify inclusion of a DCC decoder, the £5 per point I arrived at was a direct comparison with a point motor, ie excluding the panel switch and the power supply. To add a DCC decoder to the MERG/DCC solution would cost £10 for 8 outputs so adding £1.25 per point bringing the total to £6.25 including the servo. It does depend on having 8 points within reasonable range of the decoder, if you can't make full use of the decoders the price per point goes up. But not to the £13.75 of Suzie's best price above. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 OTOH, having to buy and mount micro switches to get frog polarity is IMHO, getting close to scratch building, on top of being yet another additional cost vs. the simple stall motor having the contacts built in. if you want a ready made commercial solution you have to pay for it, you might be a proffessional but most of as hobbyists in this particular endeavour having other professions, DIY is a major part of the enjoyment. The microswitch is not an additional cost, just part of the cost. If you don't like the microswitch solution a relay will be only about £1 more so the total is still below the Tortoise costs. (Cheaper point motors may be available). Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren01 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 As I said above, the commercial solutions are expensive compared to a DIY/MERG solution. The original request for a comparison did not specify inclusion of a DCC decoder, the £5 per point I arrived at was a direct comparison with a point motor, ie excluding the panel switch and the power supply. To add a DCC decoder to the MERG/DCC solution would cost £10 for 8 outputs so adding £1.25 per point bringing the total to £6.25 including the servo. It does depend on having 8 points within reasonable range of the decoder, if you can't make full use of the decoders the price per point goes up. But not to the £13.75 of Suzie's best price above. Regards Keith I do believe they do a four unit one for the points. Darren Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Max Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 It looks to me that Megapoints offer one of the most cost effective ready built solutions. Their Megapoints Controller is £50 for 12 channels (no separate setter board required and includes signal bounce option). SG90 servos can be had of the well known auction site for as little as £1.28 if bought in packs of 10, servo mounting brackets are available for between £0.35 and £0.50 dependant on material and source with lever arm microswitches at £0.50. This is not that far off going the MERG route and you do not have to build the PCBA's yourself. If you want DCC, Megapoints do a 12 way DCC module that will add £2.08 to the cost per servo channel. This is certainly the way I will be going as the cost comes in well under all the other options (possibly with the exception of MERG). I have no connection with this manufacturer and the products seem to have excellent after sales technical back up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I do believe they do a four unit one for the points. The MERG DCC accessory decoder will operate 4 points using point motors such as Tortoises or Fulgurex which need a bipolar output so using 4 pairs of outputs. However when using Servos the driver electronics needs only a simple on/off input and in this mode the decoder can use all 8 outputs individually instead of in pairs, which halves the decoder cost per point. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 if you want a ready made commercial solution you have to pay for it, you might be a proffessional but most of as hobbyists in this particular endeavour having other professions, DIY is a major part of the enjoyment. The microswitch is not an additional cost, just part of the cost. If you don't like the microswitch solution a relay will be only about £1 more so the total is still below the Tortoise costs. (Cheaper point motors may be available). Keith Sorry, I was only thinking of off the shelf solutions. Trying to compare the cost of different folks DIY capabilities is a whole different steam kettle of fishplates. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wab764 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Hi All, I have got a smartswitch which I have set up and have no problems working in manual. I also have MERG servo mounts which I use as well. I can get my servos at cut price through the club as there is a boat section and a car section in the club. I have been trying to get 4 of my servos to work on DCC but have not had much luck. I do it as the instructions say but no joy. If anyone can help I would be grateful. My DCC system is NCE. Jim M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Max Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I bought my first set with the idea of testing it out with my NCE system, I set up a pair of electro frog points with the smart system and found it a bit fiddly but it all worked fine with the Frog Board and DCC board. I also added two aspect colour light signals which also worked ok. I'm trying to set up a new layout with minimum amount of access under the layout owing to disability. This original set up was a ANE set which as a different frog board v3. Since I have obtained several more sets. The latest set was by Peco I'm setting these up on separate plywood panels in sets of 4 to be accessed from the front of the layout on shelf units for easy maintenance my first try was a frustrating disaster following the instructions and was dissembled, second try was worse on both occasions it worked fine until installing the frog boards. Third go I decided to make the board bigger, again I had problems wiring the frog boards, at that point I spotted when checking the original set up that worked that I had wired the original wrong but it had worked perfect! I put the Peco set on one side and got out another set of the ANE and tried again copying my original wiring, all now worked perfect (I checked each part worked properly as I went along). Although I'm using NCE DCC I did not install the decoder board till last I installed the switches and LED's as required for easy later fault finding. I have now started on a second board. One wrong assumption I did make is I thought the T & T+ connection on the frog boards were outputs but the are inputs. My biggest gripe on this system which is very good when set up correctly is that the enormous amount of wiring per set of 4, about 84 connections I think. In my opinion the Frog switching should have been mounted on the main board or at least have a plug in connections like the servos, ideally the stationary decoder board would also have been a plug in connection this would have then be a super system which would have cut the time set up enormously. It also seems if you find the right supplier it is cheaper to buy the Peco individual parts than the sets which I think is very poor marketing. I bought 4 of my 5 sets at bargain prices but the other 2 sets I need will be at the full prices I think. I will also need to decided wether to buy ANE sets or Peco in parts, that will be decided when I finally have another go with the Peco set. I will post some attachments on a later posting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Max Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hi All, I have got a smartswitch which I have set up and have no problems working in manual. I also have MERG servo mounts which I use as well. I can get my servos at cut price through the club as there is a boat section and a car section in the club. I have been trying to get 4 of my servos to work on DCC but have not had much luck. I do it as the instructions say but no joy. If anyone can help I would be grateful. My DCC system is NCE. Jim M Have you installed the user switch?I have find the decoder instillation is extremely easy to program on my NCE system, have installed 2 boards so far. The user switch must be switched on also when you install the set of 4 you must press the 1 or 2 button to move the servo right or left on your NCE for it to finish the instillation. JM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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