davetheroad Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I do like the "immediately ready to use" criterion, but, I think it is reasonable to qualify that with "providing you remembered to charge it". Having an automatic dead-man might be a challenge. If the user is allowed to turn it off, it is easy to implement, but a system that must automatically recognise an environment in which it is permitted and expected to operate from any in which it must not, mmm. I know, if we put power on the track.... Oh no, wait a minute... Unless they develop a multiple amp battery that lasts a couple of years. When it runs flat you get a mortage and buy a new one! My transmitters have an emergency stop function, hit the button and all the 'live' locos bound to that transmitter slow down and stop. time to stop can be varied. I have not had such an emergency yet. the receivers i use also have a sleep function. Throttle down and stable your locos. Switch off the transmitter(s) and the locos will sit there for an hour drawing 1mAh, then switch off. Or you can switch a loco off from the transmitter by holding a button down for a few seconds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Hi again.... I don't envisage moving away from wired track myself, but our cousins in the Continental/Overseas thread are watching developments across the pond..... Bachmann, no less, are introducing a Bluetooth Wireless Control system that also sends sounds to onboard speakers using Bluetooth. It is pretty crude at the moment, but maybe this has POTENTIAL for expansion, and could, I would imagine, be suitable for onboard power. http://resources.bachmanntrains.com/ihobby2014/html5/index.html?page=1 http://bluerailtrains.com/intro.cfm Thanks to Shortliner and others in the Continental/Overseas thread for keeping an eye on developements on other shores. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallen Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 A couple of points on radio control, using battery power on the loco. The DelTang receivers are small - from 10mm x 10mm or thereabouts, the big ones are 10mm x 20mm, so fitting them in to locos is not usually a problem, they include onboard speed and direction control circuits so there is nothing to add for the basic loco control. They use 2.4 GHz which is the same frequency band as WiFi and have good range, essentially unlimited numbers of locos in use, and do not need crystals. If you have 200 locos, the LiPo batteries retain their charge for months, so you if you charge them after you use them, not before, they are ready for use next time. Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The essential criterion is the elimination of control and power via the track. Any system that fails to deliver this will not eliminate the complexity and inherent unreliability of the status quo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 And then for a chance of large volume customer uptake - which is what makes a reasonable price possible - it has to hit all the current expectations generated by the existing track power and control systems, in my opinion. It is a very tough entry requirement to get such a product developed at launch to make it a 'knockout' proposition against existing methods, which is what is really required for success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 And then for a chance of large volume customer uptake - which is what makes a reasonable price possible - it has to hit all the current expectations generated by the existing track power and control systems, in my opinion. It is a very tough entry requirement to get such a product developed at launch to make it a 'knockout' proposition against existing methods, which is what is really required for success. there is, IMO, little chance of this happening. the developmental costs alone will be large and any attempt to supplant existing systems might well be faced with bitter resistance from existing volume manufacturers who have invested large amounts in DCC. there are systems in development but a common themes seems to be make them propriety in an attempt ot capture the whole market. The 2.4Ghz radio systems have the advantage that it is a relativley mature technology used by millions in those boats and planes and cars. Resistance to interference is also good. A model should only obey the transmitter it is connected to and, as the deltang recievers do, be controllable by say an aircraft transmitter. i also don't like all this tablet/screen/smartphone stuff. Modern DCC looks to me like the trains are only there as an excuse for all the cool technology. Whats the point of speed setting on a touch screen, you have to look at it. I would rather have a simple hand held unit where you can control the throttle with your thumb, while looking at the train!. What about lights? This is already built into receivers and not for me as i am building steam layout. Sound? What do you need, a whistle and to start with generic 2, 3 and 4 cylinder 'chuffs' connected to the throttle setting. i like th idea of under layout speakers as you eliminate the power issues, but how do you tie such a system into the locos position on the layout? At the moment throttle sensiivity is about what you would get with a DC controller. The loco needs more voltage to start than to run at the slowest speed. Maybe as receiver chips have buit in computers with memory etc a software implementation of 'kickstart' or similar might work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
switcher 1 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I have just been reminded of this system on another thread/site. http://www.protocab.com/ (Not sure if it has been mentioned on this thread.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin2 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Absolutely off-the-top-of-my-head... one wonders how many degrees of separation there would be from utilizing some kind of bluetooth connected micro arduino-style module for both "decoder", power-control and transmission. Perhaps segregate sound as a 'add-it-in-later' element for just a moment. The big stumbles (and I plead pure ignorance to not twigging on RC compatibilty - I know that is becoming an issue here in Australia and - evidently - is a huge hurdle in the UK) seem to be the size of the gubbins going into the loco and the transmission media. You can already do this with the Deltang devices. I have programmed one of them as a transmitter (or master) and three as receivers (or slaves) - but actually they are all transceivers and my locos can transmit their battery voltage back to the master. These are fitted, with a battery, into N-gauge locos so size is not a problem. The bigger Deltang devcies (which are still small) can probably handle enough current for 7mm locos - and it would be easy (since there is no shortage of space) to increase the current handling capacity. ...R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Hi again.... I don't envisage moving away from wired track myself, but our cousins in the Continental/Overseas thread are watching developments across the pond..... Bachmann, no less, are introducing a Bluetooth Wireless Control system that also sends sounds to onboard speakers using Bluetooth. It is pretty crude at the moment, but maybe this has POTENTIAL for expansion, and could, I would imagine, be suitable for onboard power.http://resources.bachmanntrains.com/ihobby2014/html5/index.html?page=1http://bluerailtrains.com/intro.cfm Thanks to Shortliner and others in the Continental/Overseas thread for keeping an eye on developjements on other shores. Randall Hi again... I'm surprised that BlueRail didn't trigger more interest in this thread....especially the potential for easy conversion to battery power. Surely it has all the attributes that contributors have been calling out for. Or were you all put off by the crazy dude crucifying the guitar......ughhh!!!! If you drill down to the detail pages, the developers admit they are predominatly Games Developers, but for Bachmann to be interested, they must have seen something in it..... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 There is another way to look at the problem, especially now that keep-alives offer to make our DCC control systems so reliable.... Either you accept the need for wiring and locomotive pickups - which will essentially be a one-hit job, once done it can be largely forgotten with a very occasional need for maintenance. Or you accept the need for receivers and for batteries with all the attendant problems of finding space in smaller models, charging (and the risks with some battery types), battery life and therefore expense - which are ongoing. I remain to be convinced that a no-wires solution is preferable, so the advocates have work to do. Clockwork, anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 There is another way to look at the problem, especially now that keep-alives offer to make our DCC control systems so reliable.... Either you accept the need for wiring and locomotive pickups - which will essentially be a one-hit job, once done it can be largely forgotten with a very occasional need for maintenance. Or you accept the need for receivers and for batteries with all the attendant problems of finding space in smaller models, charging (and the risks with some battery types), battery life and therefore expense - which are ongoing. I remain to be convinced that a no-wires solution is preferable, so the advocates have work to do. Clockwork, anyone? I don't see it as an either or situation. Radio control and onboard batteries is just another way of controlling model trains. Whether it is 'better' depends on individual choice. For me starting a new 00 scale layout with just plain baseboards gave me the opportunity to start from scratch with the benefits, for me, of no complex wiring and easy track laying. I happily mix insulfrog and electrofrog turnouts knowing that there will be no stalling on points problems. As for risks with Lithium Polymer batteries these IMO are overstated for model railway use where we are not overstressing the batteries during either discharge or recharge. Use an appropriate branded charger and FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS and there should be no problem. Think that many millions of those batteries are being recharged every day. Those in mobile phones, computers, tablets etc etc. Clockwork? Mmm!, how much power could you get out of a clockwork powered generator? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I don't see it as an either or situation. Radio control and onboard batteries is just another way of controlling model trains. Whether it is 'better' depends on individual choice. For me starting a new 00 scale layout with just plain baseboards gave me the opportunity to start from scratch with the benefits, for me, of no complex wiring and easy track laying. I happily mix insulfrog and electrofrog turnouts knowing that there will be no stalling on points problems. As for risks with Lithium Polymer batteries these IMO are overstated for model railway use where we are not overstressing the batteries during either discharge or recharge. Use an appropriate branded charger and FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS and there should be no problem. Think that many millions of those batteries are being recharged every day. Those in mobile phones, computers, tablets etc etc. Clockwork? Mmm!, how much power could you get out of a clockwork powered generator? In a sense you are right, but for most modellers starting a new project it will be either/or. You are obviously a convert but can I ask how small is the smallest loco you have got your wireless system into? Why would you want to drive a generator with the clockwork? A geared drive direct to the wheels would be wireless..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 In a sense you are right, but for most modellers starting a new project it will be either/or. You are obviously a convert but can I ask how small is the smallest loco you have got your wireless system into? Why would you want to drive a generator with the clockwork? A geared drive direct to the wheels would be wireless..... A 00 scale Hornby Railroad Jinty with the receiver in the boiler and the batteries in the water tanks. Replacing the batteries was fiddly so I am looking at using a step up voltage regulator with 2 batteries in parallel. That would allow for simple on loco recharging. The change over switch and recharge socket would be in the coal bunker... hopefully. The Jinty project is on hold though, I have not bought the voltage regulator yet. Clockwork for those scared of batteries i suppose!. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The essential criterion is the elimination of control and power via the track. Any system that fails to deliver this will not eliminate the complexity and inherent unreliability of the status quo. And instead replace it with massive, hidden, silicon complexity, almost order of magnitude extra cost of unneeded components and the inherent unreliabilty of line of sight, interruptible, dual power source dependent, radio links and drainable batteries. All for the ability for fundamentally track guided vehicles to run without their track. Fortunately I'm in a different hobby. The 100% working status quo of making accurate working models of railways, not imaginary R/C all terrain vehicles. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 And instead replace it with massive, hidden, silicon complexity, almost order of magnitude extra cost of unneeded components and the inherent unreliabilty of line of sight, interruptible, dual power source dependent, radio links and drainable batteries. All for the ability for fundamentally track guided vehicles to run without their track. Fortunately I'm in a different hobby. The 100% working status quo of making accurate working models of railways, not imaginary R/C all terrain vehicles. Andy OK, we get the message, you don't like radio control or battery power. The hobby has room for a wide range of preferences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin2 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 OK, we get the message, you don't like radio control or battery power. The hobby has room for a wide range of preferences. For me it is not either/or. I am not a big fan of playing trains. I am quite happy looking at them stationary or just thinking about them. I guess because I am not sufficiently dedicated my tracks and wheels are not clean enough for my N-Gauge trains to work without the great-hand-of-god using track power and DCC. With battery power I can be quite confident that the loco will work properly from the first moment I put it on the track. They also behave realistically when they derail - they keep going. ...R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 OK, we get the message, you don't like radio control or battery power. The hobby has room for a wide range of preferences. Please don't change the words or intention of my previous postings. As you've seen me post on various R/C RM Web threads, I like, have and use radio control and high data rate wireless, both as a model railway hobbyist and professionally. But, that same experience and technical background makes me highly skeptical of the many less well thought through claims and justifications for utilizing rechargeable batteries in in-home used, small scale model trains, no matter what control system is used. And I'm especially against any attempted justification for "standardizing" their use in RTR model trains, forcing the rest of us to pay much higher prices for no good reason or any better results. For example, "eliminate the complexity and inherent unreliability of the status quo", is a completely misleading and over the top comment, especially for 7mm scale, which may perhaps have more to do with helping selling battery powered trains, than giving generally helpful advice. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Please don't change the words or intention of my previous postings. As you've seen me post on various R/C RM Web threads, I like, have and use radio control and high data rate wireless, both as a model railway hobbyist and professionally. But, that same experience and technical background makes me highly skeptical of the many less well thought through claims and justifications for utilizing rechargeable batteries in in-home used, small scale model trains, no matter what control system is used. And I'm especially against any attempted justification for "standardizing" their use in RTR model trains, forcing the rest of us to pay much higher prices for no good reason or any better results. For example, "eliminate the complexity and inherent unreliability of the status quo", is a completely misleading and over the top comment, especially for 7mm scale, which may perhaps have more to do with helping selling battery powered trains, than giving generally helpful advice. Andy That is not going to happen for the simple reason that manufacturers have invested in existing technologies and IMO will either try to dissuade users from trying new ideas, in which they won't suceed, or introduce their own system. I notice that Bachmann USA are planning on introducing a wireless system next year so at least one manufacturer is taking notice. It also matters little that the Bachmann system will require DC or DCC track power, just substitute the appropriate battery. As for better results. i did not have to wire my layout. The engines start on command without the 'hand of god'. They run over complex pointwork without stalling. Track cleaning is a lot easier, basically removing fluff and dust. The engines have excellent hauling power, maybe because they don't have to overcome the drag all those multi wheel pickups impose. I can use my locos on any 00 layout, DC or DCC so, for me the results are better. Much higher prices? My Deltang hand held 12 loco transmitter cost £58 or in kit form £25. The receiving boards that i would use cost between £27 and £30. Batteries £10 per loco and about £40 for a charger. A single loco start up could cost a little over £100. It works for me and I am having fun, that is all that matters!. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I believe something could happen because technology and business can never stand still if they wish to survive and prosper. One has only to consider the problems facing Nokia, RIMS (makers of the Blackberry) and products like cassette tapes, video tape, CDs, incandescent filament light bulbs, push-along lawnmowers, horse-drawn vehicles and sailing ships. Now, I concede that those opportunities were for products with huge mass markets and the financial dynamics are different, but someone was prepared to take the risk and finance a new way of doing things and it will always happen because that is human nature. Consider some of the revolutions that have occurred in our hobby of model railways: - substitution of clockpower by low voltage DC electric power - the introduction of H0 and 00 after decades of domination by 0 - the indroduction of metal die-casting for locomotive superstructures instead of printed tin-plate - the move from three to two-rail electric traction - in 00/H0 and later 0, the introduction of track with individually moulded sleepers - the supercession of metal die-cast locomotives by plastic injected moulded models - the introduction of DCC All of these innovations required financial and commercial risk, but they were disruptive to the status quo and happened. I also suspect that a wireless system with an effective and small on-board power source could be applied to slot-car racing models thus spreading the cost of R&D. It well may be that we simply have not yet seen the happy combination of technical know-how, risk capital and, perhaps, serendipity necessary to effect this revolutionary change. If it happens, I will be very happy, but if not I can plough on with what currently works and still enjoy my hobby, which, ultimately, is all that matters. Now, back to work on Cwm Bach and chasing the factory for the delivery date for the new version of the Ixion Hudswell Clarke. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Anderson Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Well done everybody. I enjoy reading this thread and the various differing contributions. Chris, Nudge - Ixion motor current/voltage figures ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I for one, mourn the passing of incandescent light bulbs, horse drawn transport and sailing ships, and err, mmmm, oh, yeah, I remember, steam engines... (conversely, I do not miss being up to my nethers in horse poo, nor do I miss smog) S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I for one, mourn the passing of incandescent light bulbs, horse drawn transport and sailing ships, and err, mmmm, oh, yeah, I remember, steam engines... (conversely, I do not miss being up to my nethers in horse poo, nor do I miss smog) S Yes, those bulbs, try sourcing the equivalent of a 150watt locally. nobody sells them. you have to go online. i wanted one yesterday. Luckily here in the UK we have lots of steam engines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted November 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2014 There is another way to look at the problem, especially now that keep-alives offer to make our DCC control systems so reliable.... Either you accept the need for wiring and locomotive pickups - which will essentially be a one-hit job, once done it can be largely forgotten with a very occasional need for maintenance. Or you accept the need for receivers and for batteries with all the attendant problems of finding space in smaller models, charging (and the risks with some battery types), battery life and therefore expense - which are ongoing. I remain to be convinced that a no-wires solution is preferable, so the advocates have work to do. Clockwork, anyone? There is a third option, which is based on the silly idea that technology doesn't stand still. See http://www.iflscience.com/technology/graphene-based-supercapacitors-could-eliminate-batteries-electric-cars-within-5-years Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin2 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 There is a third option, In the context of this discussion (and especially the Post you quoted) that is just another "battery" alternative. Probably even more dangerous than LiPos. ...R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 There is the option of LiFePO4 if you have the space to fit them. Apparently they are safer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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