Is there a worst mainline than Norwich - Liverpool St

[Jol Wilkinson]

Paul

 

I have no wish to either excuse poor service over what rail infrastructure does exist, nor provoke the ire of the good people of Norfolk, but I think that population density does have a huge bearing, accepting that it is not even across the whole county, because:

 

- any investment for social reasons is usually made on the basis of 'the greatest good for the greatest number';

 

- any investment for profit will tend to look for big markets.

 

Investment for broader economic development, job creation etc, is a bit different, being a policy decision about which parts of the country the government wishes to promote growth in, and current thinking on that one seems to be that 'The North' is the priority in that respect, so trade routes across Norfolk to/from ports come into the picture, which ought to throw some side-benefits (and dis-benefits) locally.

 

What I suppose I'm saying is that no government is ever likely to pass a very big slice of the cake to Norfolk, because a few things, which I will put crudely at risk of causing offence, seem to be true:

 

- not a huge proportion of the national population live there;

 

- the area suffers from 'edge affect', because there are no destinations beyond it;

 

- those that do live there are fairly thinly spread, which means that public transport investment will always show poor returns;

 

- despite the rather poor transport infrastructure, a steady stream of people are moving into the area ........ it doesn't seem to need investment to make it attractive or to promote economic activity;

 

- railways are a very poor mode of public transport in areas of low population density, because they have poor 'reach' ...... it might be better to invest in road and bus-service improvements.

 

Oh dear ....... I probably have provoked ire now; I'd better shut up.

 

Kevin

 

While you present some strong reasons why Norwich and Norfolk should be ignored, you overlook the ones that say it isn't sufficiently fashionable - other than for some weekend cottages owners - or populated by civil servants, bankers, etc. like Surrey, Sussex. and Kent. It also applies to other areas of East Anglia, for example compare the A2070 in Kent with the A12 north of Ipswich. I was amazed at the grandeur of some of the lesser roads in Kent and East Sussex during a recent visit.

 

The issue is not that Norfolk is badly served by road and rail infrastructure, but that East Anglia  in general has suffered from lack of investment over the years. Rail into Felixstowe container port is inadequate, the A12 south of Ipswich and especially Colchester is in a poor state,  The A120 from Braintree east is a joke (it is at dual carriageway between Stanstead, the M11 and Braintree Freeport shopping outlet, what does that tell you?). etc.

 

What things are like around Birlstone I can't imagine.

[Suzie]

I live in the reasonably densely populated part of East Anglia just South of Suffolk, and my nearest motorway genuinely is in Kent - the other side of the Thames estuary! I cannot wait for train times to London to be brought back to 1962 levels. It is hard to believe that even with a pretty dire over congested road network it is still quicker to drive than go by train most of the way to London, and often the only way to get a comfortable seat. Travelled in a 321 yesterday and the once acceptable cushions have now lost all their spring and I was sitting on the hard base with comfort dropping below even 360 levels of discomfort.

 

No investment, no maintenance, all down to no votes, especially so with the demise of the UKIP opposition.

 

The reason for great migration in to East Anglia is that it is cheap - the local residents can't afford to live anywhere at all! Anyone migrating from London can buy a similar sized property and retire on the price difference. My guide to how wealthy an area is - look at the age of the cars. You won't find many under ten years old in West Norfolk. 

[The Stationmaster]

I noticed at Yarmouth last Wednesday that investment in signalling and trackwork (i.e. basically what amounts to renewal with modern kit and rationalisation.  And no doubt remote control?) is taking place there and generally in that direction on the route via Acle so NR is definitely spending money on its existing infrastructure.    Fortunately I was there long enough to get pics of most of what will obviously soon be on the way out. 

[ess1uk]

I noticed at Yarmouth last Wednesday that investment in signalling and trackwork (i.e. basically what amounts to renewal with modern kit and rationalisation.  And no doubt remote control?) is taking place there and generally in that direction on the route via Acle so NR is definitely spending money on its existing infrastructure.    Fortunately I was there long enough to get pics of most of what will obviously soon be on the way out. 

The famous about turn on fitting ERTMS

[Pete the Elaner]

I live in the reasonably densely populated part of East Anglia just South of Suffolk, and my nearest motorway genuinely is in Kent - the other side of the Thames estuary!

Eh?

You seem to be ignoring the M11 & M25. I agree that they are congested but not significantly more than the M1, M4, M5, M6 or M62. You would even have to use or cross the M25 to get to Kent too.

[russ p]

The famous about turn on fitting ERTMS

So glad that junk wasn't installed over here!

 

It has been mentioned about the wealth of the area, there is a serious amount of money along the north Norfolk coast and about ten miles inland

Sad thing is its not based here.... Bloody second homes!

I bought a house here twenty years ago but nowadays there is no way I could afford to move to the area.

It doesn't help the area at all as a lot of them are rarely here so don't support local shops and pubs.

[Jol Wilkinson]

So glad that junk wasn't installed over here!

 

It has been mentioned about the wealth of the area, there is a serious amount of money along the north Norfolk coast and about ten miles inland

Sad thing is its not based here.... Bloody second homes!

I bought a house here twenty years ago but nowadays there is no way I could afford to move to the area.

It doesn't help the area at all as a lot of them are rarely here so don't support local shops and pubs.

A malaise also affecting Suffolk, notably the coastal towns such as Aldeburg and Southwold but also Woodbridge.

[Suzie]

Eh?

You seem to be ignoring the M11 & M25. I agree that they are congested but not significantly more than the M1, M4, M5, M6 or M62. You would even have to use or cross the M25 to get to Kent too.

The M11 and M25 are more distant as the crow flies than the M2, and the M11 is a North/South route in the West so not much use to someone in the East.

 

Having lived in the North West for a while I can assure you that just popping in to Manchester down the M62 during a lunch hour is perfectly feasible - popping in to Colchester down the A12 isn't!

 

I will admit that rail services in the North West are at similar levels to those in rural East Anglia, with the added Pacer experience!

[David C]

Thanks, RMWeb members for your comments, which are all very interesting, but none of which seem address my original question of how long whatever is causing weekend bustitution will last. I appreciate that maintenance is ongoing, but I would have thought the entire length of the Liverpool Street - Norwich line could have been replaced several times over by now! Unless, of course, there's just one chap replacing the ballast stone by stone ......

 

I'm not, nor have I ever been, a pro railwayman, so I don't know the problems, but it would be nice to understand why this particular route is causing so many delays at weekends. 

 

Incidentally, I moved to Ipswich from SE London a few months ago and go up to Liverpool Street roughly fortnightly during the week. The service has been pretty good, with delays recently due to lineside fires and/or drunks creating difficulties, particularly on the last train from London. All of this is understandable and I'm not complaining about that - just the weekends!

 

David C

[russ p]

Basically David, as I said a bit back its because its only double track and most work needs both lines under possession

[locoholic]

Basically David, as I said a bit back its because its only double track and most work needs both lines under possession

I did notice yesterday that the four-track line from Euston to Milton Keynes is closed for a few weekends soon, with replacement buses, so having more than a double line is no guarantee of freedom from bustitution.

 

I've often wondered if a west to north curve could be built at Haughley, and a new line built from Bury St Edmunds into London, to reflect the growth of that place and Haverhill and Saffron Walden, and the importance of Stansted Airport.

[Zomboid]

Rewiring an existing route is a long winded and slow process. You can only do a limited amount because it needs to be switched back on for trains to run after every work session, which means not only is the work you can do rather limited, but you've got to take and give up isolations every time, which in itself is not a particularly fast process. It all means that basically nothing can be done over night, so it all has to happen at weekends.

[beast66606]

I noticed at Yarmouth last Wednesday that investment in signalling and trackwork (i.e. basically what amounts to renewal with modern kit and rationalisation.  And no doubt remote control?) is taking place there and generally in that direction on the route via Acle so NR is definitely spending money on its existing infrastructure.    Fortunately I was there long enough to get pics of most of what will obviously soon be on the way out. 

 

Colchester PSB takes over in March 2019 - currently.

[Pete the Elaner]

I did notice yesterday that the four-track line from Euston to Milton Keynes is closed for a few weekends soon, with replacement buses, so having more than a double line is no guarantee of freedom from bustitution.

 

I've often wondered if a west to north curve could be built at Haughley, and a new line built from Bury St Edmunds into London, to reflect the growth of that place and Haverhill and Saffron Walden, and the importance of Stansted Airport.

The WCML blockades are to replace North Wembley Junction. Both pairs of lines need to be closed for such a change.

 

As for a new line from Bury/Haughley to London, it could be argued that you could travel to either Ipswich or Cambridge then get on the main lines there. This may be feasible if the line between the 2 was upgraded but since it has not been, is there really a demand for it? You could argue that upgrading draws in passengers, like the electrification of the WCML did in 60's.

Building a new line will inevitably mean upsetting a few locals, like HS2 has.

[flapland]

Well I made my first every trip to Norwich today from Stratford(London). Good journey up and a lovely day in Norwich(will return). Although lots of seats in the Mk 3's they are still better than the Pendolino's I travel more frequently on up to Manchester. Arrived most stations early so clearly lots of slack in the schedule on a Saturday.

 

Return journey was a bit more challenging though. On the 19:00 from Norwich we left and time and got to Stowmarket on time but then spent over 35 mins whilst the driver tried to solve a issue described by the guard as an issue taking power. Managed to get to get to Ipswich but then capped. Shifted on a train from Ipswich but sadly driver/box hadn't been asked to stop additionally at Stratford. Ended up having to travel home from Liverpool St instead of the planned journey to Gospel Oak on the Overground. 

 

Anyway had far worst disruptions in my time and it was good to get some loco haul. Might go back in the Autumn and try and get a 37 run to Great Yarmouth.

 

Slightly off topic does anyone know what the large logo 37 was on Norwich station this evening. It was down the side so hidden from clear view.

Edited August 18, 2018 by flapland

[47164]

The lack of communication to commit to additional stops is abello's greatest failing, along with not telling staff at a prior station that a train is terminating at the following station, I have on a few occasions recently in the peak hour boarded at Chelmsford only for the train to terminate at shenfield and for the following service which is fast through Chelmsford.. with space to rattle through Shenfield and that not a service from Norwich...I suspect that it a way of managing numbers at Chelmsford.. but either way an irration as a paying passenger.