Hornby LSWR M7 245

[GeoffBird]

I picked up a LSWR M7 for my Dad a couple of months ago to complement the PC Models coaches that he made back in the 1980s. I thought a few people might be interested in seeing a photo of the rake:

 

IMG_05455.jpg

I have got a set of PC LSWR coaches that I built up in the 1980's including a clerestory roofed Dining car, but all are in SR livery.  Such a shame that they can't be obtained now,  There are now several LSWR model avalable in RTR and I too would like some coaches to go with them.  Whilst PC are not right up to the current Hornby Standard but they were relatively easy to put together compared with the Roxey models.  Let's hope that Hornby could produce a 3-car set which could go through all the colour variations from salmon/brown to BR(S) green when the last ones were withdrawn in 1956.

[Edwardian]

I have got a set of PC LSWR coaches that I built up in the 1980's including a clerestory roofed Dining car, but all are in SR livery.  Such a shame that they can't be obtained now,  There are now several LSWR model avalable in RTR and I too would like some coaches to go with them.  Whilst PC are not right up to the current Hornby Standard but they were relatively easy to put together compared with the Roxey models.  Let's hope that Hornby could produce a 3-car set which could go through all the colour variations from salmon/brown to BR(S) green when the last ones were withdrawn in 1956.

 

Currently I have 3 1/2 of a 4 1/2 Roxey set and 3 out of 4 of the PC non-corridor 56' cross-country set.

 

So, close, to having 2 rakes for this loco.  Not at all usual having coaches but no loco to go with it!  A problem Hornby has now solved. Pity Red Box refused to tool its other, now fairly numerous, ex-LSW offerings to allow them also to be LSW offerings!

 

With RTR, you have to be grateful for what you can get.  It's one less thing to build when they do come up with an occasional useful release!

[Edwardian]

.  Let's hope that Hornby could produce a 3-car set which could go through all the colour variations from salmon/brown to BR(S) green when the last ones were withdrawn in 1956.

 

I imagine you'd want that as a 4-car set for LSW days.

[GreenGiraffe22]

I imagine you'd want that as a 4-car set for LSW days.

 

Would Hornby's M7 be able to pull a 4-car set? Mine only just manages 2 coaches, any more and it starts to slip on curves

[Edwardian]

Would Hornby's M7 be able to pull a 4-car set? Mine only just manages 2 coaches, any more and it starts to slip on curves

 

Are the PC coaches any heavier than, say, a RTR Mark I?  Mine have white-metal bogies and ends and the body formers are a light metal, but against that the sides weigh very little.  I don't have any means to test my stock, but that I am surprised by what you say. Would a Roxey 4 1/2 set fair any better (shorter, but heavier, models)? 

 

I seem to recall that M7s were felt capable of hauling express services west of Exeter, but were taken off them after a derailment scare.  In suburban work, I imagine some quite long block set type trains would have to be managed by the class.

 

What is the point of a large modern (turn of the century is modern for me) passenger tank if it cannot walk away with a long and heavy commuter train or stride out with a short semi-fast service?  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Would Hornby's M7 be able to pull a 4-car set? Mine only just manages 2 coaches, any more and it starts to slip on curves

 I have just the one M7, acquired cheaply as project fodder, but its turn has yet to come around...

 

It was tested on receipt, and I was impressed. Once tweaked, it would just take away 12 x free rolling Bach mk 1 coaches, on level track. Significant wheelslip on starting, and quite a lot of slipping while most of the train was on a 36" rad curve. Couldn't restart with this curve fully occupied by the train. Capability on gradients fell off very quickly. Most layouts I have encountered prove to have gradients of 1 in 100 on them, there or thereabouts, and curvatures smaller than 36" radius. That will most likely explain much of the lack of tractive capacity: it's got just sufficient for level track and relatively large radius curve operation if a large prototypical load is to be hauled.

 

What had to be tweaked were the bogie wheel pick ups, to barely grazing the wheelbacks, and the trace wires to these bogie pick ups, to apply very slight pressure on the bogie and no more. It's a real 'balancing act' as a drive layout, and that could be seen when starting before the 'tweaking' had been undertaken, much better mechanical grip with the bogie leading. That's how I gauged the bogie 'springing' by the trace wires, adjusting it to get the forward traction as near as possible to the bogie leading performance.

 

On the subject of free rolling stock, a standard I was given in my teens at the club is one I still adhere to: rolls away on a  true 1 in 100 as the minimum acceptable. (Far better than this is possible in OO, and should be obtained.) Obtain this, and you may find vehicles or even trains rolling away on supposedly level layout sections; but that's a different problem that needs addressing.

[Ian Hargrave]

And then of course is there is the difficulty with traction with a four coupled model loco,particularly so with tank engines.The M7 is certainly a difficult child.

[SRman]

 I have just the one M7, acquired cheaply as project fodder, but its turn has yet to come around...

 

It was tested on receipt, and I was impressed. Once tweaked, it would just take away 12 x free rolling Bach mk 1 coaches, on level track. Significant wheelslip on starting, and quite a lot of slipping while most of the train was on a 36" rad curve. Couldn't restart with this curve fully occupied by the train. Capability on gradients fell off very quickly. Most layouts I have encountered prove to have gradients of 1 in 100 on them, there or thereabouts, and curvatures smaller than 36" radius. That will most likely explain much of the lack of tractive capacity: it's got just sufficient for level track and relatively large radius curve operation if a large prototypical load is to be hauled.

 

 

Did you try it bunker first on the gradients too? I am wondering whether the weight transfer onto the driving wheels might possibly be sufficient to alter your results.

[Guest]

Would Hornby's M7 be able to pull a 4-car set? Mine only just manages 2 coaches, any more and it starts to slip on curves

That's interesting.

 

I have three. One will easily manage 5 around tight curves, the others struggle with 4...

 

Regards,

Matt

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Oh very much so. On the 1 in 80gradient it would reliably start near twice the load running bunker first and pushing, as compared to engine first and pulling. Mostly the dynamics of torque reaction, bunker leading loads up the front driver (more grip) and unloads the bogie (less drag); engine leading unloads the leading driver (less grip)  and imposes more weight on the bogie (more drag).

 

The weight transfer may not be that much, but the bogie already has to carry a large proportion of the total weight for the loco to balance at all on level track: thus the need to make sure those bogie wheels rotate freely, which means pretty much taking the wheelback wipers out of contact - I reckon they are 75% effective at best the way I have mine adjusted - 'just grazing'. The trick this mechanism has to perform is to pull very near half its own weight as a load before any train is added: there's about 43% of the model's weight on the bogie if my memory serves. On level track if you pin the bogie wheels non-rotating, the driven wheels can barely overcome the drag!

 

The real winner in an 0-4-4T mechanism layout, and not impossible with current transmissions, is to go for an all wheel drive appropriately geared for matching tyre speeds on the railhead. That would go like a lightweight BoBo, and provided it wasn't excessively loaded up, the bogie wheels should not be observed slipping too often.

[John M Upton]

I had a problem with one of my M7's in the haulage capacity department (the most any is likely to haul is four Bachmann Mk1's though) which on further investigation it emerged was at one time a DCC fitted example so the weights inside the tanks had been removed.  A search through the spares box found a pair and once reinstated it was improved.

[GreenGiraffe22]

I have the Sunshine M7, it can manage 2 Hornby Maunsells but certainly not 3, heck even adding a PLV to 2 of the new Hornby rebuilt 58' Maunsells makes it struggle. It's pretty noisy too. Quite the disappointing loco

[Edwardian]

Hmm.  So could this be a little overly ambitious?

 

 

 

 

[SRman]

I have to say, whether it can actually move or not, that does look very nice.

[Nearholmer]

I'd never "got" the LSWR livery, thinking that both the coaches and the locos looked a bit strange, almost "fairground attraction", until recently. Now that models of complete trains are being seen more frequently, it becomes clear that the livery works splendidly, as a whole.

 

I think a few other pre-grouping liveries might be the same: SECR positively gaudy locos, offset by plain,dark red coaches; Caledonian sky blue, balanced by the dark part of the coaches, but kept light overall by the white; Stroudley "green" being a 'wood-related" hue, so toning with the coaches; etc.

 

The one that I still don't get is the L&Y; talk about grim up north!

 

K

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Hmm.  So could this be a little overly ambitious?

 I would say possible, subject to the following:

Loco well adjusted for minimal bogie drag. (More can be done to improve traction, but start with minimising loss of traction from the bogie.)

Coaches truly free rolling, test on a true 1 in 100.

Level track.

 

If the coaches are heavy and free rolling what you will see is both wheel slip on starting, and should the power be turned down at an unrealistic rate from speed, the train briefly pushing the loco along.

[Edwardian]

I'd never "got" the LSWR livery, thinking that both the coaches and the locos looked a bit strange, almost "fairground attraction", until recently. Now that models of complete trains are being seen more frequently, it becomes clear that the livery works splendidly, as a whole.

 

I think a few other pre-grouping liveries might be the same: SECR positively gaudy locos, offset by plain,dark red coaches; Caledonian sky blue, balanced by the dark part of the coaches, but kept light overall by the white; Stroudley "green" being a 'wood-related" hue, so toning with the coaches; etc.

 

The one that I still don't get is the L&Y; talk about grim up north!

 

K

 

Aye lad, reet grim.  Not that far from us was a Midland station that looks for all the world like it is on the Settle & Carlisle, but which was mainly worked by the North Eastern.  The darker and lighter crimson lakes of these companies' coaches is what would appeal to me.  The Lanky coach livery was an, ahem, interesting choice!

 

The relatively bright green of the NE locos is offset by the rich dark of their crimson lake coaches, which colour extended to the roofs! 

 

Whereas, the smart lined black of the L&Y locos makes them look in a hurry to be disassociated from their chocolate and vomit coaches!

[railroadbill]

Hmm.  So could this be a little overly ambitious?

Looks a very effective rake. I'm trying to put together a short rake of LSWR-ish coaches to run behind my Hornby 488 Radial by modifying some old Triang clerestory GWR coaches.  a) They're pretty much the right  length and profile for 1900 built  48' LSWR coaches, comparing them to a GR Weddell drawing.  b) I've got some.  c) There's some pics of this conversion on the Radial thread and they look ok.     Fitting new roofs should give the right roof profile.  If I can find some Fox bogie kits then they could be fitted later.

 

The only commercial paint I can find is Precision paints  P 411 and P 412 for salmon and brown. Local model shop doesn't have them so it's mail order or the next exhibition. The HMRS livery register no 3 gives a variety of possibilities for the colours so the exact shade of so long ago probably isn't certain. I've got some pictures of the restored coach at York but it's in low light...

 

The idea is to get me started with an LSWR train and I can then look for better detailed kits etc. later.

 

So after some advice, the  question is, are the Precision colours recommended? Also, is the LSWR brown close to GWR brown? Or is it darker? 

 

 

 

 

 

Having seen the Hornby M7 in Drummond livery, I'm very tempted to look for one of those as well.

[Edwardian]

Looks a very effective rake. I'm trying to put together a short rake of LSWR-ish coaches to run behind my Hornby 488 Radial by modifying some old Triang clerestory GWR coaches.  a) They're pretty much the right  length and profile for 1900 built  48' LSWR coaches, comparing them to a GR Weddell drawing.  b) I've got some.  c) There's some pics of this conversion on the Radial thread and they look ok.     Fitting new roofs should give the right roof profile.  If I can find some Fox bogie kits then they could be fitted later.

 

The only commercial paint I can find is Precision paints  P 411 and P 412 for salmon and brown. Local model shop doesn't have them so it's mail order or the next exhibition. The HMRS livery register no 3 gives a variety of possibilities for the colours so the exact shade of so long ago probably isn't certain. I've got some pictures of the restored coach at York but it's in low light...

 

The idea is to get me started with an LSWR train and I can then look for better detailed kits etc. later.

 

So after some advice, the  question is, are the Precision colours recommended? Also, is the LSWR brown close to GWR brown? Or is it darker? 

 

 

 

 

 

Having seen the Hornby M7 in Drummond livery, I'm very tempted to look for one of those as well.

 

The idea was to create a "4 and a half set" out of what I could lay my hands on second hand.  The 'half', a 6-wheel brake van, exists, but my offspring knocked it off a shelf and, so, it required partial re-assembly.  

 

So, I take no credit here for anything save having the good sense and good taste to acquire someone else's work.  They are all Roxey kits.  I bought these, and various other coaches and unmade kits, when I was enjoying a decent income, I am glad I did, because I cannot afford second-hand kit prices these days.  The M7 was a lucky find.  They are still available from retailers new at around £115-124.  I was fortunate to find a nearly new one for less.

 

So, that is by way of explaining why I cannot answer your question from first hand experience.  I do have LSWR kits to build and vehicles I would like to scratch-build, so the issue is of interest to me. 

 

The best information I can offer is the opinion of G R Weddell.  From the 1990s he produced 3 volumes on LSWR coaches.  They are an example of what books on coaches should be IMHO.  These 3 volumes and the 2 recent ones on LBSC 4 & 6-wheel stock are really the best of their kind.  Try to model GE coaching stock, for example, and you have no such advantages!

 

At pages 87-88 (volume 1), Mr Weddell describes the ability to take samples of the original paint from two old carriages that had been used together as a bungalow in Exmouth.  He states:

 

The 'salmon pink' was definitely slightly lighter and pinker than the colour sample shown in the original edition of the HMRS Livery Register No.3 LSWR and Southern, though doubtless the colour would have been modified by varnish, but as seen it looked much like the shade often used by Hamilton Ellis in his paintings. The brown in the lower panels was a fairly dark warm brown but, where varnish survived over it, it appeared so dark as to be almost black.

 

... the 'salmon' could be ... fairly closely matched by Dulux C.D. ref. 20140-Y-60R.  Model makers will probably appreciate that they would need to use a very slightly lighter shade to produce the correct effect. 

 

I suggest that most of the coaches in my pictures have the salmon on the dark side, but, thus, could fairly represent the effect of age and varnish.  Though it is not particularly clear from the photos, the leading brake van in the rear row is lighter and probably closer to the ideal. It might be that the brown should be a little redder and darker than GW chocolate, though, frankly, variations in colour due to varnish, age, uv, weathering, dirt etc mean that it isn't really worth too much agonising. 

 

I feel that there is a fairly broad range in acceptable livery shades, because of the appearance of colours on the prototype would have varied and because everything needs to be adjusted for scale and layout lighting.  It is an issue over which one can become too exacting.

 

When it comes to it, I will try Precision, if necessary adding white to the salmon until I feel the effect is broadly consistent with the appearance of stock in Hamilton Ellis's work. That is the best advice I can give you, I'm afraid.

[railroadbill]

Thanks, Edwardian, that's put me on the track, I think.  I've just dug out "trains we loved" by C Hamilton Ellis and that has a good LSWR painting in it with coaches headed by a T9.  Very good idea of yours to look at those paintings, the carriage roofs are an interesting light grey, certainly not white which couldn't have lasted long. 

I'll get the Precision paints, used their tins before, and see how they come out with a bit of lightening.

 

Have some old MRC mags with G R Weddell drawings in them, the books you mention sound very interesting. I'll have to do a search...

 

Trouble with LSWR modelling is that some locos/stock lasted a very long time, nearly to the end of steam, but had been modified a lot so a model of a  loco in 60s can't just be repainted. However, smaller locos that didn't get superheated like the M7 and 0415 and O2 are ok.

 

I've always found it an  interesting railway, having travelled some of its lines in BR days so an LSWR  train or 2 running round the layout would be good.

Apart from  the radial tank  I've got an original T9 on the stocks using GBL bits, and a Falcon Brass 460 kit that is right at the bottom of the to-do box...

 

Tell you what, that E10 double single in the painting you posted would make a cracking model...

[Edwardian]

Thanks, Edwardian, that's put me on the track, I think.  I've just dug out "trains we loved" by C Hamilton Ellis and that has a good LSWR painting in it with coaches headed by a T9.  Very good idea of yours to look at those paintings, the carriage roofs are an interesting light grey, certainly not white which couldn't have lasted long. 

I'll get the Precision paints, used their tins before, and see how they come out with a bit of lightening.

 

Have some old MRC mags with G R Weddell drawings in them, the books you mention sound very interesting. I'll have to do a search...

 

Trouble with LSWR modelling is that some locos/stock lasted a very long time, nearly to the end of steam, but had been modified a lot so a model of a  loco in 60s can't just be repainted. However, smaller locos that didn't get superheated like the M7 and 0415 and O2 are ok.

 

I've always found it an  interesting railway, having travelled some of its lines in BR days so an LSWR  train or 2 running round the layout would be good.

Apart from  the radial tank  I've got an original T9 on the stocks using GBL bits, and a Falcon Brass 460 kit that is right at the bottom of the to-do box...

 

Tell you what, that E10 double single in the painting you posted would make a cracking model...

 

Good luck with it all, and I hope we see the results posted on RMWeb.

 

The 3 volumes cover (1) Up to 1900, which is important because it includes all the non-bogie stock plus the 1890s bogies coaches, which lasted a long time , (2) 1900 onwards, including vehicles built after grouping, and (3) Brakes/NPCs

 

I believe they are all out of print, and vol. 2, LSWR Carriages in the Twentieth Century, is hard to find for under £100.  The other 2 should be in the £20-35 range.  I guess a lot of people assumed they'd only need the volume dealing with 20th Century coaches.  They are missing out if they neglect the other 2 IMHO.

 

When I grow up, I want one of these (built and painted in this case by Mr C R Phillips):

[railroadbill]

Thanks for the info on the Weddell books, worth keeping an eye out for.   [£100 is a bit heavy, you could buy 3/4 of a loco for that ]   

That O2 looks rather nice, with the elaborate Drummond lining.  I quite like the original Adams livery as well.

 

Just found some white metal torpedo roof ventilators that look the right shape according to the Weddell drawing but there are also what appear to be oil lamps in the roof although there are gas tanks underneath so a bit of research is needed...

 

More when (if!) I get further with this.

[Edwardian]

Thanks for the info on the Weddell books, worth keeping an eye out for.   [£100 is a bit heavy, you could buy 3/4 of a loco for that ]   

That O2 looks rather nice, with the elaborate Drummond lining.  I quite like the original Adams livery as well.

 

Just found some white metal torpedo roof ventilators that look the right shape according to the Weddell drawing but there are also what appear to be oil lamps in the roof although there are gas tanks underneath so a bit of research is needed...

 

More when (if!) I get further with this.

 

An Adams T1, in Drummond livery, of course, which I think Mr Phillips has better than Hornby, though I am happy enough with the latter.  I note that Mr Phillips's interpretation is closer to that in Hamilton Ellis's painting.

 

Who makes the torpedo vents?  The LSW ones seem noticeably taller than others'.  Perhaps this simply means mounting the more commonplace torpedo vents on longer 'stalks'. 

 

Are the lamps these?

 

Upper drawing oil lamp holders, lower gas lamp holders as per photograph.

[railroadbill]

 

A Hornby M7 will pull 4 coaches, if they are very light like these old Triang/Hornby clerestory ones. They do now have replacement metal tyred wheels, (the square axle Hornby ones), but the current turned metal wheel sets may be a future step.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the look I'm going for once the roofs are cut back or replaced with non-clerestory ones. and coaches  are repainted in LSWR colours.

 

 

 

 

The roof vents (and lamps?) look like this. Looking at your pics I think they are gas lamps?

 

 

 

 

 

This is the end view.

 

 

Don't know who made these, they've been in the parts box for years. Had some ABS ones once but they were 7mm and I never went that way.

 

 

.Apologies for confusing T1 and O2!    A rather elegant loco.

 

Thanks for info, very useful.

[olivegreen]

Good luck with it all, and I hope we see the results posted on RMWeb.

 

The 3 volumes cover (1) Up to 1900, which is important because it includes all the non-bogie stock plus the 1890s bogies coaches, which lasted a long time , (2) 1900 onwards, including vehicles built after grouping, and (3) Brakes/NPCs

 

I believe they are all out of print, and vol. 2, LSWR Carriages in the Twentieth Century, is hard to find for under £100.  The other 2 should be in the £20-35 range.  I guess a lot of people assumed they'd only need the volume dealing with 20th Century coaches.  They are missing out if they neglect the other 2 IMHO.

 

When I grow up, I want one of these (built and painted in this case by Mr C R Phillips):

 

I agree with your recommendation of 'the other 2' volumes (and also the fourth volume on Goods and miscellaneous vehicles is worth looking at)…. but I really wish a publisher would reprint the most desirable volume, volume 2: I'm sure it would be a sell-out, even to this rather niche market.

 

Crecy, Noodle et al… are you listening?