RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2015 I agree that the figures may be misleading if the do not include amounts attributed to freight but they are straight from the first linked gov.uk document in the article: Transparency data: Rail subsidy per passenger mile The quoted figures for Northern Rail are: Train operator subsidy per passenger mile (pence) 2012-13 23.9 2013-14 25.8 Network Grant per passenger mile (pence) 2012-13 29.1 2013-14 25.7 Total subsidy per passenger mile (pence) 2012-13 53.1 2013-14 51.5 So is transparency the wrong word? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Is the French equivalent of Parliament a majority of Socialists though Mike, or a case of, like USA, the President happens to be left of centre but his policies are shot down in flames by a right wing dominated House? C6T. Nope - Sarkozy's party, the UMP, the main right-of-centre opposition, is currently in meltdown. Hollande (as President) is just inept. His Prime Minister is more capable. Frighteningly, and especially after Charlie Hebdo, this will see the Front National become a front-runner next time. I expect the trains may run on time then........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Hmm. A global financial meltdown followed by kneejerk voting in of the political fringes. Sounds ominously familiar doesn't it..? Understanding this isn't the place to vocalise such concerns, I'll say no more on that! C6T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivegreen Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Next time a journalist wants to make a daft fares comparison, there is a particularly good bargain available in the Languedoc-Roussillon Region of France (which stretches from the Spanish border at Cerbere right up into the Lozere. You can, so long as you only use regional trains (TER) go anywhere for just €1. Only condition seems to be that you have to book online. Within each departement, bus fares too are only €1 with some long journeys possible. Despite such bargain fares, and more frequent services, very few people seem to be using them. We're slightly off topic, but perhaps but those not used to France should note that what one might call country buses are virtually non-existent in most of France, and where they are it is largely only at commuting times to go to and from work, so few people have the habit of taking those others that do exist. Much the same goes for many - though I admit not all - of the TER (= regional) trains. Long distance coaches likewise are very few and far between here, and deregulation to allow such business to expand has been long and slow in coming. Just a couple of things to bear in mind when comparisons are made. Edited for spelling, as usual! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Is the French equivalent of Parliament a majority of Socialists though Mike, or a case of, like USA, the President happens to be left of centre but his policies are shot down in flames by a right wing dominated House? C6T. The President of the USA is to the right of centre, as have been most US presidents, and as the Blair Labour government was in this country; I would have said that the Heath Conservative government would be to the left of the present Labour position. It's just that the Republicans, and the Conservatives in this country, are so far to the right. This assumes that the terms 'left' and 'right' have any meaning today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The President of the USA is to the right of centre, as have been most US presidents, and as the Blair Labour government was in this country; I would have said that the Heath Conservative government would be to the left of the present Labour position. It's just that the Republicans, and the Conservatives in this country, are so far to the right. This assumes that the terms 'left' and 'right' have any meaning today. I understand your point about where the "centre" now actually lies, but Heath? Really??? The Heath that introduced one of the most hated Industrial Relations Acts ever passed? Anyway, back to the point of this thread...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 We're slightly off topic, but perhaps but those not used to France should note that what one might call country buses are virtually non-existent in most of France, and where they are it is largely only at commuting times to go to and from work, so few people have the habit of taking those others that do exist. Much the same goes for many - though I admit not all - of the TER (= regional) trains. Long distance coaches likewise are very few and far between here, and deregulation to allow such business to expand has been long and slow in coming. Just a couple of things to bear in mind when comparisons are made. Edited for spelling, as usual! French rural bus services are very good in some places. In the P-O, not only is there a reasonable service to many places, but the fare is only €1. That's less than it costs me (£1.30) to get home by bus from our town centre about 2km away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 To get back OT, British rail fares are wrong. A day return from Gillingham (Dorset) to London is £54.50. I can get advance singles that get that down to about £43. But for the same price, I can go to Thetford via London and Cambridge But to go to Cambridge is more expensive. The advance singles to London are only cheap if I travel later in the day, which would be too late for my 11am meeting in the City. But if I book to Thetford, I can take the 08.12 train which will do nicely! I can also get an earlier train back from Waterloo. PS: I only found this out by chance as SWMBO has to attend a course in Thetford soon. I wonder what the cheapest option is that I can find that allows me to take the 08.12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 To get back OT, British rail fares are wrong. A day return from Gillingham (Dorset) to London is £54.50. I can get advance singles that get that down to about £43. But for the same price, I can go to Thetford via London and Cambridge But to go to Cambridge is more expensive. The advance singles to London are only cheap if I travel later in the day, which would be too late for my 11am meeting in the City. But if I book to Thetford, I can take the 08.12 train which will do nicely! I can also get an earlier train back from Waterloo. PS: I only found this out by chance as SWMBO has to attend a course in Thetford soon. I wonder what the cheapest option is that I can find that allows me to take the 08.12 I have no doubt you are right, but this sort of thing has been so ever since the 1980's, under BR, when market pricing was fully introduced by the sectors. I recall reading many such complaints in Modern Railways at the time, and Barry Doe made a career out of it. Indeed, in my brief time as a booking clerk on the SR in the late 1970's, there were many instances of day returns being cheaper than singles, and don't mention the Big City Savers!! "But why can't I get off at Runcorn when my ticket is valid to Liverpool"..... Thing is, if they started again and made every fare entirely logically distance based, what would be the result? I suspect much like local bus service rates, and look what has happened to them. Perhaps demand pricing is necessary, despite some obvious illogicalities which are mostly invisible to the bulk of travellers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 I have no doubt you are right, but this sort of thing has been so ever since the 1980's, under BR, when market pricing was fully introduced by the sectors. I recall reading many such complaints in Modern Railways at the time, and Barry Doe made a career out of it. Indeed, in my brief time as a booking clerk on the SR in the late 1970's, there were many instances of day returns being cheaper than singles, and don't mention the Big City Savers!! "But why can't I get off at Runcorn when my ticket is valid to Liverpool"..... Thing is, if they started again and made every fare entirely logically distance based, what would be the result? I suspect much like local bus service rates, and look what has happened to them. Perhaps demand pricing is necessary, despite some obvious illogicalities which are mostly invisible to the bulk of travellers. I totally understand demand pricing. The 08.12 is always busy as the first "day return train", half the price of travelling on the one before. But I don't understand why I can have a cheap fare on the 08.12 if I book to Thetford (with no intention of going there) but not if I book to London. It's the same bum on the same seat. Back in BR days, I knew some very knowledgeable ticket office clerks who would always find you the best option. They don't seem to exist any more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I totally understand demand pricing. The 08.12 is always busy as the first "day return train", half the price of travelling on the one before. But I don't understand why I can have a cheap fare on the 08.12 if I book to Thetford (with no intention of going there) but not if I book to London. It's the same bum on a seat. Neither do I!! But that is just the sort of anomaly that market pricing creates! It relies on not many people knowing about them. Otherwise, Thetford would suddenly be getting a 10 minute interval service I suspect, based on CAPRI returns! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 I totally understand demand pricing. The 08.12 is always busy as the first "day return train", half the price of travelling on the one before. But I don't understand why I can have a cheap fare on the 08.12 if I book to Thetford (with no intention of going there) but not if I book to London. It's the same bum on the same seat. Back in BR days, I knew some very knowledgeable ticket office clerks who would always find you the best option. They don't seem to exist any more. Quite honestly it was probably as bad then as it is now - as one of my Relief Clerks once put 'I used to work on a railway booking tickets, now I feel as if I work in a supermarket when I'm in a booking office'. And that was 40 years ago - a couple of years after market pricing came in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Back in BR days, I knew some very knowledgeable ticket office clerks who would always find you the best option. They don't seem to exist any more. Oh but they do. At least as far as Watford and St Albans are concerned. Excellent service several times with mixed discount rate tickets using two cards and advice on booking from one station but travelling from another. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 On the rare occasion when I have needed to book rail tickets I have found that taking the trouble to drive to the nearest manned ticket office gets a better deal than relying on websites. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Ask yourself this question. If you were, for example, the CEO of a bank, would you rather do that job or. at the same salary, clean the loos in the bank HQ? And then there is the question of "doing a good job". However clever the CEO of a large organisation, his/her results depend on his/her employees working well. In fact a CEO gets a lot of help from others while the much lower remunerated small business person has to master far more aspects of running the business. Ask the shareholders of many large businesses (e.g. Barclays and Bob Diamond) whether the high-paid directors are doing a good job in terms of what they are getting by way of dividends. Is there really only one man that can do a good job in a particular job? Very rarely. So why not shortlist all the candidates that can do the job and then ask them to bid against each other. That would be the proper "market economics" way to do it. CEO salaries are rather like footballers wages. If you want someone with the right experience and ability you have to pay them enough to tempt them from their current job. I don't like what premiership footballers or many CEOs are paid but it is all about supply and demand in both cases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2017 I totally understand demand pricing. The 08.12 is always busy as the first "day return train", half the price of travelling on the one before. The thing demand pricing doesn't seem to address is who want to sit (or stand) on a crowded train if they've got the option of taking a less crowded one? I guess it depends on whether you view the off-peak fares as cheaper (a bum on a seat paying a little is better than none at all), or peak time ones as raised (and similar for choice of route etc.) Is the goal to get people off certain trains, or on to others? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 CEO salaries are rather like footballers wages. If you want someone with the right experience and ability you have to pay them enough to tempt them from their current job. I don't like what premiership footballers or many CEOs are paid but it is all about supply and demand in both cases. That's an old post to bring back. But I totally disagree with you. According to economic theory, there should be a perfect market and therefore supply and demand should set the prices. But the reality is that neither CEO salaries not footballers' wages are set that way. CEOs, particularly in Western Europe and the US, form part of an "old boys' network" in which their remuneration is set not by shareholders but remuneration committees appointed by the directors and formed of other CEOs. There are thousands of folk out there who could do just as good a job - and indeed better in many cases. Footballers likewise is a completely false market created by agents, press speculation and, above all, club owners' vanity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 That's an old post to bring back. But I totally disagree with you. According to economic theory, there should be a perfect market and therefore supply and demand should set the prices. But the reality is that neither CEO salaries not footballers' wages are set that way. CEOs, particularly in Western Europe and the US, form part of an "old boys' network" in which their remuneration is set not by shareholders but remuneration committees appointed by the directors and formed of other CEOs. There are thousands of folk out there who could do just as good a job - and indeed better in many cases. Footballers likewise is a completely false market created by agents, press speculation and, above all, club owners' vanity. On CEO's, shareholders have the right, in plc's anyway, to approve or otherwise, the remuneration committee's recommendations, every two years. The problem has been that the vast majority of shares are held by institutions similar to the one being voted on, and such reps do not want to rock the boat, despite individual shareholders' rebellions. At last, Blackrock, one of the world's largest investment houses, that holds huge numbers of shares in many of our FTSE 100 companies, is now rocking that boat. So we may begin to see things change. As someone on t'elly said very recently, it isn't capitalism anymore, but corporatism, and that is making the world a much unfairer (and less democratic) place. That is not only unjust, but increasingly very dangerous, as we have just seen in the recent referendum. Quite how many people who voted out believe that will solve this problem, having placed more power with the corporations on to one small nation as opposed to a collection of 28, as a result, is a whole other subject, and very probably not allowed on here. Incidentally, China is now seeing a similar swelling of unrest over this. I don't think the USA will be anytime soon, not until they realise just what they have done. For footballers, there is only one group to blame - the fans who keep paying more and more for it, either at the gate or via the TV subscriptions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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