Section Signal in advance of the signal box

[Benn]

Hello all,

A quick query regarding signalling (BR WR if it makes any difference). 

I am building an extension to my layout, and everything to the right of the road overbridge in the centre-right will be new. Here is the track plan so you have some context;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/55746092@N00/16531538068/in/album-72157633098039466/

 

I'm planning to signal it as illustrated, there will be a ground signal by the double slip exiting the goods/parcels yard which isn't illustrated.

The basic question I'd like to know is; can you have a section signal placed before the box, or does it have to be after? Or can I get away with it being before the box under the 'local knowledge' card..?

Cheers,
Benn.

[Grovenor]

You really only have one interlocking there and one signal box is enough, as drawn your platform starters are your junction homes and vice versa. There would be a horrible lot of complex slotting.

Much better you just have one boxat that end of the station and keep your slotting to the more common scenario between station east and station west boxes.

Regards

Keith

PS A section signal is the signal governing entry to the block section, where it is physically in relation to the signal box is not relevant.

[Benn]

You really only have one interlocking there and one signal box is enough, as drawn your platform starters are your junction homes and vice versa. There would be a horrible lot of complex slotting.

Much better you just have one boxat that end of the station and keep your slotting to the more common scenario between station east and station west boxes.

Regards

Keith

PS A section signal is the signal governing entry to the block section, where it is physically in relation to the signal box is not relevant.

 

Thanks for your feedback Keith. The theory behind having the two boxes was that it was once a very busy junction where two main lines diverged, but as the layout is set in the early 70s, the junction and surrounding area is modelled as heavily rationalised, and box 2 by the junction would of been demolished if it wasn't for the crossing it controlled... In it's present set up, the box marked 2 would control the crossing and signals in the down direction (from left to right), and box marked 3 would control signals and movements in the up direction (Right to left), operating independently unless a train required to run over the single slip - which is where the slotting would come in to it. 

 

Thank you for your information with regards to the section signal position. The platform end signals are supposed to act as starters and section signals, hence the distant arms, as it's an urban area and the sections are very short. I find signalling quite confusing at times...

 

Cheers,

Benn.

[The Stationmaster]

No problem - a Section Signal can be in rear or in advance of the controlling signalbox.

 

Now to your scenario - on the Western by the date you have in mind one of those signalboxes would very definitely have gone - most likely the one by the level crossing (which in turn would have been modernised although you possibly get away with the previous signalbox being retained as a ground frame pending modernisation work on the crossing should you wish to keep the structure.  in any case it would have been quite unusual for the Western to have two signalboxes that close together and the crossing would probably in any case have been controlled by a Crossing Keeper although possibly from a small 'signalbox like' structure.

 

Incidentally teh signal protecting teh crossing reading out of teh sidings would most likely have been a single arm with a route indicator and wouldn't in any event have had a lower arm distant.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Now to your scenario - on the Western by the date you have in mind one of those signalboxes would very definitely have gone - most likely the one by the level crossing (which in turn would have been modernised although you possibly get away with the previous signalbox being retained as a ground frame pending modernisation work on the crossing should you wish to keep the structure.  in any case it would have been quite unusual for the Western to have two signalboxes that close together and the crossing would probably in any case have been controlled by a Crossing Keeper although possibly from a small 'signalbox like' structure.

 

Under the powers of the 1968 Transport Act, the Government gave BR money to maintain track and signalling assets that were no longer required pending their "elimination". This was done for five years from 1st January 1969. The effect of this was that BR was encouraged to rationalise as much as possible during that time and a lot of boxes disappeared. On our patch Stourbridge Jn South was put on the Middle box, Kidderminster Station onto the Junction, Hartlebury Junction onto the Station, Langley Green East onto the Middle, Old Hill closed and an Up IB provided, Round Oak North onto the South, Wellington Nos 3 & 4 onto No.2. The list goes on and on. In 1973 we removed something like 17 boxes and Shunt frames, about 20% of our total, on the Birmingham Division alone.

[LNERGE]

Here's a box with the starter in rear. It was built like this.

 

 

An earlier diagram here..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/7340930244/

[Benn]

Thank you very much gents, some very interesting info.

With regards to the remaining structures; perhaps I should of given slightly more context to the diagram then! The layout is set in '69-72, in the Bristol Suburbs (Lawrence Hill area). The imaginary scenario; the area and equipment are run down, semaphores and track in their currently layout are very much an interim measure; the area has been heavily rationalised already in phase 1 of the run-down, but soon the whole area is to be remodelled with MAS signalling, the yard will close, junction lifted, and the crossing and box controlling it and down movements will be demolished, and what's left transferred to BR East box. The triple doll bracket would of originally controlled the left hand running line at that point before rationalisation, and is still relevant as it controls the same movements from that point on the remaining road, so it's left over from the previous alignment as opposed to paying money to replace it for it to be demolished in a year or two anyway. See picture for clarity...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/55746092@N00/16446016075/in/album-72157633098039466/

 

Modellers license!

Cheers,
Benn.