china clay operations 1950s

[stivesnick]

Hi

 

I am starting to plan a new GWR branch layout based on Looe in Cornwall. On the real railway, china clay traffic to the quay at Looe ended in the 1920s but on my layout it continues into the 1950s. I have some questions on how it would operate.

 

1. Would the china clay traffic be a separate train or wagons added to the daily freight?

2. How long would it take to unload the wagons at the quay?

3. Would the loco wait, pick up empties wagons from the previous day, or leave light engine and return later/next day?

 

Any thoughts on this welcome.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Brinkly]

Hi

 

I am starting to plan a new GWR branch layout based on Looe in Cornwall. On the real railway, china clay traffic to the quay at Looe ended in the 1920s but on my layout it continues into the 1950s. I have some questions on how it would operate.

 

1. Would the china clay traffic be a separate train or wagons added to the daily freight?

2. How long would it take to unload the wagons at the quay?

3. Would the loco wait, pick up empties wagons from the previous day, or leave light engine and return later/next day?

 

Any thoughts on this welcome.

 

Regards

 

Nick

Hi Nick,

 

We are currently building a P4 version of Bodmin General, so my knowledge of clay working is based on the operation of this line.

 

First of all to answer point 1 it depends on the amount of traffic being shipped and the gradients on your proposed line. On Bodmin clay wagons could only be brought up from Boscarne to Bodmin General in cuts of 8, so loco, 8 clay wagons and a brake van. A box van for bagged clay could also be added to this. Once at Bodmin General the train would then be formed into 16 full wagons, plus two box vans for bagged clay and a brake and would travel to Bodmin Road and beyond. The opposite was performed with empty wagons.

 

Point 2 - Unloading wouldn't be too long, but was, and still is, dependant on the tide times.

 

And lastly - Most probably the loco would arrive with the full wagons, shunt them to the dock, then proceed back up the line with the empty wagons.

 

Are you following Looe completely, or changing the track plan around?

 

Hope this is of use.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[Branksome71B]

1. Most likely the clay traffic would have been added to the daily freight as there always has been the issue of line occupancy between Coombe Jct and Looe, Coombe Jct had a signal box and Looe a ground frame by 1950s. No loops, refuges or sidings between the two to allow crossing of trains on this section. Once at Looe Goods Yard, (whether passenger or freight) second train allowed into section.

 

2.  Presumably all dependant on state of tide in river and draught of ships. At one time, there were rails beyond the fish quays almost reaching the Little Banjo Pier so lower quay would be the most likely place for discharge as Looe's fishing Luggers amounted to some 15 boats and smaller fishing boats tied up along the fish quay.

 

3. Siding space on quay was always in short supply, if too much traffic received to be easily handled, there was some siding space in Goods Yard and v/v empties could be placed there. Again, because of line occupancy, very unlikely locos would run light engine in either direction. During busy Summer Sats until early 1960s, freight was generally suspended to allow an additional path for passenger relief train.

[stivesnick]

Thanks gentlemen for your most helpful replies.

 

The idea for the layout is to use the track plan at Looe as it is different from most other stations. In N Gauge I can fit the platform and goods yard in a 8 foot scenic section with minimal changes. The only possible change to the plan would be to move the town gas works nearer to the town and give it a dedicated siding. The quay area would be a second fiddle yard. I am more likely to alter the town scene to fit in with the space available. Including the gas works would mean that the station area would have a more edge of town feel about it.

 

The reason for the question was to help develop a suitable timetable which I would be happy to operate at an exhibition before I start building.

 

I am currently going through Gerry Beale's book on the line to see which aspects of operation I will keep and which I want to change. Hopefully by listing these things out, I can keep the layout more believable.

 

Will start a layout thread once construction starts.

 

Thanks again for your help

 

Nick

[Only-Me]

I shall be following this with interest..

Edited August 19, 2015 by Only-Me

[brianusa]

Was there ever much clay traffic at Looe?  Even in the early days there couldn't have been a lot.  Nothing like that coming down from Caradon except granite and whatever mine business was left.  Par, Charlestown and Fowey were close enough and probably the bulk from Moorswater and Coombe went out that way. Given the shortage of sidings, Looe was probably more concerned with getting out the fish and whatever local business there was as there wasn't anywhere else on the branch convenient for loading and unloading.

 

There is a very interesting modern rendition of Looe on RM, if a little basic.

 

Brian.

[stivesnick]

Thanks Brian

 

Like many modellers, it is likely that I will end up with too much rolling stock, so will be able to have both china clay and granite traffic.

 

I am using Looe for the track plan, and will modify the train service to create something more interesting for exhibition use.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[ELTEL]

What year did the bauxite fitted freight China clay wagons come into device, the non hooded type

 

Eltel

[hmrspaul]

What year did the bauxite fitted freight China clay wagons come into device, the non hooded type

 

Eltel

The 300 BR end door china clays built unfitted were all in the booklets for vacuum braking from 1959, and this does seem to have been done thoroughly, despite only having a 9ft wheelbase. Those built from 1957 were VB from new.

 

Paul

 

Paul

[ELTEL]

Many thanks

[brianusa]

Did this interesting layout ever come to fruition?

 

Brian

[stivesnick]

Did this interesting layout ever come to fruition?

 

Brian

Hi Brian

 

I had developed plans to two layouts, this one and an American one. The American scheme is being built first - see 7th street terminal in the overseas section. My GWR branch line will follow hopefully later this year.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

1. Most likely the clay traffic would have been added to the daily freight as there always has been the issue of line occupancy between Coombe Jct and Looe, Coombe Jct had a signal box and Looe a ground frame by 1950s. No loops, refuges or sidings between the two to allow crossing of trains on this section. Once at Looe Goods Yard, (whether passenger or freight) second train allowed into section.

 

2.  Presumably all dependant on state of tide in river and draught of ships. At one time, there were rails beyond the fish quays almost reaching the Little Banjo Pier so lower quay would be the most likely place for discharge as Looe's fishing Luggers amounted to some 15 boats and smaller fishing boats tied up along the fish quay.

 

3. Siding space on quay was always in short supply, if too much traffic received to be easily handled, there was some siding space in Goods Yard and v/v empties could be placed there. Again, because of line occupancy, very unlikely locos would run light engine in either direction. During busy Summer Sats until early 1960s, freight was generally suspended to allow an additional path for passenger relief train.

 

Looe Signalbox was closed in March 1964 although it had been severely rationalised in November 1963, refer to my post, at No. 6, in this thread -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14547-signalling-on-the-liskeard-looe-line/

 

Passenger and freight trains were definitely booked to cross at Looe in the 1936 & 47 Service Timetables mentioned below and there would have been no reason for this facility to cease prior to the rationalisation of signalling at Looe late in 1963.  This also means that a freight could be at Looe, working within the sidings, while passenger trains ran between Looe and opombe Jcn. 

 

The line was built to carry copper and tin ores to the coast and to convey coal, sand and lime up the valley.  The Railway would seem to have had little involvement with china clay during its early independent existence but the china clay works at Moorswater was in existence in 1911 so it is quite likely that there was some clay traffic over the line by the very late Nineteenth/early Twentieth centuries.  

 

Looking at the Summer 1938 and summer 1947 Service Timetables the traffic pattern seems to have been fairly consistent - the first train down from Liskeard in the morning is show as a Mixed Train while there was single freight from Liskeard shortly after midday which worked briefly at Moorswater before continuing to Looe and again spent a short time at Moorswater on its return in the early afternoon.  In the afternoon there was a path for a cattle train from Looe To Liskeard which no doubt ran only as required - it was not present in the 1947 book.  The middle day freight from Liskeard is the one which would no doubt have conveyed any clay traffic from Moorswater.  The 1961 pattern of passenger train services is little different from that in the two earlier years I've mentioned above