First generation DMU questions

[Robert Shrives]

Hi TS depot tricks kept things going but could go awry, one such case a 117 escaped to Derby - well as far as Rams Halt where a bogie gearbox glowing, once fire out it was found that the final drive had no lid bolted on - so TS - Burton about all possible with an empty gearbox having thrown its oil in short order.

The same controller had L579 or perhaps L578  as a WM area set only on fire at Melton Mobray on a Cambridge train - electrical fire this time - adding water in true fire (sorry- thermal incident) service way broke the trailer back and it was deemed not safe to move - fire service boys broke a window waded in water and punched holes through floor to let water out. It was then propelled into sidings - the trail dried out as a white sludge!

At which point the Asbestos gremlins and safety elves got to play and vehicle had to be wrapped and ballast dug out!! - All this for trying to run a train service with dmus !!  

good old days !!

Robert

[TheSignalEngineer]

At one time Tyseley was supposed to be on Component Exchange Maintenance where you took out a complete engine or gearbox or other assembley. Their understanding of 'component' wasn't quite the same as the Management interpretation. From what we saw come past, failed coaches sent away from Tyseley looked to have very little serviceable stuff remaining.

Edited October 17, 2015 by TheSignalEngineer

[wombatofludham]

I must admit the tales of what Tyseley did to keep the job running are fascinating. Working at Centro at the time and being a regular user of the Cross City I don't think their efforts were always appreciated by the public but it is a testament to their work that when the 323s started throwing hissy-fits when the temperature got slightly nippy they could still turn out some lash-up "go faster" all power car sets to maintain some sort of semblance of service. Even if one day right in the middle of the peak one of the Blake Street terminators was the Gatport Airwick two car Class 119 unit that spent time in the Midlands - with a low density seating arrangement, fewer seats resulting from the enlarged luggage area and no centre car, the luggage van was already wedged when it creaked into New Street. Suffice it to say I waited 45 minutes and let it and the next few services out before getting a seat on a near empty 304. One of the benefits of being a rail enthusiast, you never get bored waiting a bit longer for a train especially at New Street!

 

I wonder if we should move these tales of the work some of the depots did in keeping the last first generation units going into a new thread?

[Market65]

All this is stuff which no one would believe if they were not involved in railways in one way or another!

For I remember a 101 arriving at Hull Paragon station, and the speedometer cable between the bogie and solebar just broke away with a big bang!  Fitters came. They had a look at it. They managed to place the cable back into the 'socket' on the solebar. The driver then tried moving the unit. It came away again! I don't know what happened after that for a train which I needed to catch was about to depart, but hopefully those fitters would have got it sorted out one way or another!

Very resourceful those fitters!

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[kenw]

Yes, from the same reference, the 4-car 104s were built for the North Eastern Region, and were formed DMCL-TSL-TBSL-DMCL.

I've converted one of these from a pair of Hornby 110 sets.

If I can be excused straying briefly back on topic to the original question of NE region 4 car set formations; 

My BRCW (104) 4-car, ex 2 x Hornby 110

 

 

 

The TBSL. A cut and shut from a TSL and DMBS. The Hornby power bogie is transplanted into  the trailer car chassis by cutting out the central bolster in the bogie cut-out of the chassis;

 

 

 

Also mentioned previously, the Met-Cam (101) Trailer Buffet cars;

 

A representation of the buffet bar from plasticard can be seen in place of the seating

 

 

Vent-Axia vent on roof of buffet area, a cast w/m part, sorry but can't remember source.

Glazing with sliding vents filed off, and painted over to represent the blanking panels in the window apertures;

 

 

oops, that reminds me; finish off with lining across the window panels!!!

 

photos on club test track

Edited October 22, 2015 by kenw

[kenw]

All this is stuff which no one would believe if they were not involved in railways in one way or another!

Right, let's now get back off-topic 

I did hear the story once of two  DMU sets being coupled at Newcastle and working through to Middlesbrough (about 40 miles) where it was discovered the brake pipes and multi-working cables were all coupled correctly....

but the actual coupling hadn't been put on

[kenw]

Another favourite I heard of. Remember, they had a habit of 'loosing an engine' , ie it shutting down, due to the radiator boiling / leaking dry. Many staffed stations were equipped with watering cans for the driver to refill and then restart them;

On this occasion though, a unit stops at Dilston S.B., (just west of Corbridge, L.C. with former A69). the conversation reputedly went something like this;

Driver; A've lost an engine!

Signalman; Ok mate, I'll wire Hexham have the water ready for you

Driver; Naw mate; its obstruction o th line, it fell off!

Edited October 22, 2015 by kenw

[sub39h]

Finally managed to get through reading all of the replies - some incredibly detailed and helpful information so thanks very much to all of you!

 

Ok so I gather from the responses that 4 car units basically didn't exist by the late 1980s? If they did what formations would they have been by then?

 

In DMBS-TCL-TCL-DMCL formations how were the first class sections arranged? Surely it would be confusing as hell to have three separate 1st class sections!

[31A]

Right, let's now get back off-topic 

I did hear the story once of two  DMU sets being coupled at Newcastle and working through to Middlesbrough (about 40 miles) where it was discovered the brake pipes and multi-working cables were all coupled correctly....

but the actual coupling hadn't been put on

 

Not the first time I've heard that story!  In one of his books, Charles Meacher recounts experiences as a Running Foreman at Thornton depot and relates that "on one occasion, and possibly more, the coupling was completely forgotten" and a pair of 3-cars went from Thornton Junction to Leven and back before it was realised that the coupling hadn't been put on.

[kenw]

From what I recall, the last Newcastle area 4 car sets worked the North Tyne Loop services, and went when these ceased for conversion to Metro, which was before I passed out in 81.

The South Shields services had also ceased by then, not sure if these had used 4 car sets.

By the late 80s the DMUs were rapidly being replaced by Pacers / Sprinters and surviving centre cars were rare. Our sets all went when the Pacers, 143s originally, came in during 85 / 86.  When these then started failing en mass, all sorts of DMUs were drafted in to cover. (As well as loco haulage  )

By the late 70s the first class on DMUs, in this area at least, was de-classified

Edited October 23, 2015 by kenw

[sub39h]

From what I recall, the last Newcastle area 4 car sets worked the North Tyne Loop services, and went when these ceased for conversion to Metro, which was before I passed out in 81.

The South Shields services had also ceased by then, not sure if these had used 4 car sets.

By the late 80s the DMUs were rapidly being replaced by Pacers / Sprinters and surviving centre cars were rare. Our sets all went when the Pacers, 143s originally, came in during 85 / 86. When these then started failing en mass, all sorts of DMUs were drafted in to cover. (As well as loco haulage )

By the late 70s the first class on DMUs, in this area at least, was de-classified

Ok thanks for clarifying. That would explain why I'm finding it hard to find a 4-car set in Regional Railways livery!

[kenw]

Regarding permitted tail traffic for DMUs particularly 'Light Weight' units, I've found my ER (Northern Area) Sectional Appendix 1972 and 1979;

(a normal power car was 300hp, some, eg 110, 111 were 360hp. Some early Lightweights had a single 150hp engine to each car)

 

The 1979 instructions are somewhat simpler;

"Tail traffic in the form of bogie vehicles or four or six wheeled vehicles having a wheelbase of not less than 15 feet...over the routes shown.... subject to the over-riding limitation that the tail load attached to a unit of lightweight construction must not exceed 25 tonnes gross."

For all routes listed the table gives the following loads; ( Train Formation / Min. Horsepower / Max. Tail Load Gross-Tonnes)

2 car 300hp; 25t

4 car 600hp, 2 car 400hp; 40t

3 car 600hp, 4 car 800hp; 65t

2 car 600hp, 5 car 900hp; 90t

4 car 900hp, 4-6 car 1200hp; 120t

For Parcels only trains

Darlington / Middlesbrough

2 car 600hp; 180t, 4 car 600hp; 120t

"For the purpose of this instruction the following maximum vehicle gross weights apply;

BZ, BGZ, BY, CCT, PMV, & SPV; 25 tonnes loaded; 17 tonnes empty

B, Siphon G, BG and GUV; 40 tonnnes loaded; 32 tonnes empty."

Also, tail loads were only to be attached to trains timed for the additional load, and an inoperative engine reduced the load by 35 tonnes.

 

The 1972 instructions are, unfortunately, much more complicated and route (and sometimes direction) specific, the table running to 3 full pages, so not possible summarise,

Generally though, wheelbase of 4 and 6 wheeled vehicles not limited. and lightweight units limited to 1 vehicle 17 tons gross, as are normal 2 car (300hp) sets.

 

 

edit; error spotted by SRman corrected

Edited October 24, 2015 by kenw

[SRman]

A minor correction to your post, Kenw: class 110 (and class 111) had two 180 hp Rolls Royce engines on board, so total per power car was 360, compared to the "standard" 300.

[kenw]

A minor correction to your post, Kenw: class 110 (and class 111) had two 180 hp Rolls Royce engines on board, so total per power car was 360, compared to the "standard" 300.

Ah yes, sorry. Was just thinking of their engines being 180hp each, they did of coarse still have two per power car.

Post corrected, thanks

Edited October 24, 2015 by kenw

[kenw]

Ok thanks for clarifying. That would explain why I'm finding it hard to find a 4-car set in Regional Railways livery!

I don't remember ever working an actual 4-car set, 2 x 2-cars yes, but not a single 4-car.

And only occasionally a 3-car.

I passed on the units in mid-81

[russ p]

I don't remember ever working an actual 4-car set, 2 x 2-cars yes, but not a single 4-car.

And only occasionally a 3-car.

I passed on the units in mid-81

If you were at Newcastle you would have worked quite a lot of 3 cars in the early 80s. Can you remember the guards ruling where they would only open 3 cars if they had an ATE with them? Otherwise one of the driving cars was locked out. There seemed to be loads of them including some 104s

[kenw]

Hi,

I certainly did work some 3 car sets, though don't remember them as being common, or maybe I just wasn't on them long before they disappeared. Or maybe it's just too long since!

And yes, that reminds me, vaguely remember there was something about how many cars a guard could work on his own. Of course these were paytrains and Sunderland and Hexham in particular had frequent stops, 4 intermediate stations in 12 mile to Sunderland, and 6 intermediate in 20 mile to Hexham

[russ p]

As I recall some of your Sunderland jobs in the late 80s were scary in the number of trips you did.

I was at Thornaby so 1h 20m of our passenger jobs was taken up traveling pass so we had it easy

[kenw]

Ah yes, the 5 Sunderlands! Thanks for reminding me.

Originally, the Middlesbroughs were express Heworth - Sunderland, and Sunderland terminators were all stations,

then of coarse, just to confuse us, they put an additional Sunderland on - express....

One day, on one of the 5 tripers, I stop at Boldon Colliery,  you were braking on approach anyway for a permanent 30...

Guard comes along to the cab window....

"We don't stop here mate" 

[kenw]

What was really scary though....

trying to stop with a Pacer!

Edited October 24, 2015 by kenw

[russ p]

Aye that's the one ... Legendary! Towards the end of our passenger work we used to get a job on a Saturday which was Middlesbrough - Newcastle - Middlesbrough- Whitby and back I think we got it as a 12h overtime job it was a long job but I quite liked it as long as you got to Whitby early so you could go to the chip shop.

I know what you mean about the pacer's especially when they had the cable brakes!

[kenw]

Aye that's the one ... Legendary! Towards the end of our passenger work we used to get a job on a Saturday which was Middlesbrough - Newcastle - Middlesbrough- Whitby and back I think we got it as a 12h overtime job it was a long job but I quite liked it as long as you got to Whitby early so you could go to the chip shop.

I know what you mean about the pacer's especially when they had the cable brakes!

Oouch, that does sound a long, still nice though. I remember the Whitby chippy! For some reason back then, from Gateshead we used to go to Darlington for the DMU training, on the Whitby branch. If you were at Thornaby then I probably came across you sometime.

 

Exactly, Pacers, 'the only trains with brakes an optional extra'

Edited October 24, 2015 by kenw

[russ p]

All the Newcastle inspectors used to take us to Whitby for all sorts! We went about 3 times on the secondmans course about 3 times with sandy Thompson and Alfie Gascoigne

The distances I cover these days are massive compared to then, we think nothing about Norwich to York or even on occasion the metro center. Mind I'm long term sick at present, hope to be back December or Jan.

We've probably crossed paths and still do more often than we think.

[kenw]

Ah yes, Sandy and Alfie, not forgetting Tommy Waters, Billy Headley, and Les Moffat, all great characters, 'bless 'em!

And, of coarse, Billy Welsh, always the 'creaking gate', last I heard though, still with us. I was first to pass MP12 with 'Welshey' when he took over as chief examiner.

 

What is it you're on now? Norwich to Metro Centre? that's a good run.

My profile pic's at Edinburgh, second time for the day, how things have changed!

 

Hope you're back soon mate!

Edited October 24, 2015 by kenw

[New Haven Neil]

South Shields sets were always 2 car 101's, very unusual to see anything else until almost the end when a 105 appeared.  I do not ever recall seeing a 3 or 4 cars set in SS, just a pair of two car sets when it was busy.  Back when it WAS busy!