French style stonework - in 2mm

[IanStock]

Hello,

 

my research into French modelling continues... just wondering what people use to represent that rather distinctive type of stonework that seems to crop up all over the place, on bridges, retaining walls etc. -  as though the stones have had any irregularities chipped off, and the mortar almost looks as though it is slightly proud.

 

I have bought a sheet of Slaters crazy paving but am not totally convinced by it. Better alternative suggestions gratefully received, particularly for any sources of suitable plastic card.

 

Many thanks

Ian

[ianp]

I suggest you look at the acrylic sheets produced by a Spanish firm called Redutex: http://redutex.com/?lang=enTheir stuff seems very good to me.

[IanStock]

Thanks - yes I think I will need to give them a try but I think their colours perhaps look rather garish. Not sure how easy it is to wrap a building and what the risk of warping might be. Only one way to find out! Other ideas welcome too, though...

 

Ian

[Joseph_Pestell]

I suggest you look at the acrylic sheets produced by a Spanish firm called Redutex: http://redutex.com/?lang=enTheir stuff seems very good to me.

 

Which is more than one can say for the functionality of their website. I could not find any sheets that represented "pierre hexagonale".

 

As the OP indicated, the stones are not actually hexagonal at all. That effect comes from scribing a hexagonal pattern into the mortar.

[ianp]

Redutex makes dozens of different stones, bricks, tiles etc and in various scales. You may find that something in one scale look like something else in another scale. Good luck with their website though.

[rue_d_etropal]

Always worth asking Redutex to see if they can produce what you want. I remember seeing something about them offering that service before they started exporting to UK.

Also do you have a picture of what you mean.A geo reference so I can see what you mean on Google map. 

 

I tend to think of French buildings mainly being cement rendered. The few buildings round my area, where the owners have decided to remove the rendering, have ended up with a very mixed patchwork of stone. I think most of the stone(?) in my town house is basically rubble(marble?), so covering it with cement is an improvement, and it is not easy to drill either. Local materials are the norm, and marble is used for many things round my town, as it is quarried locally.

 

 

Just done a quick google search, and found this pierres-hexagonales patterned sheets

http://www.decapod.fr/materiaux-de-base/276-mur-de-pierres-hexagonales-ho--2001500059206.html

[Mike Storey]

Something here might prove useful too  http://www.lrmodelisme.com/21-habillage-de-surfaces-n 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Always worth asking Redutex to see if they can produce what you want. I remember seeing something about them offering that service before they started exporting to UK.

Also do you have a picture of what you mean.A geo reference so I can see what you mean on Google map. 

 

I tend to think of French buildings mainly being cement rendered. The few buildings round my area, where the owners have decided to remove the rendering, have ended up with a very mixed patchwork of stone. I think most of the stone(?) in my town house is basically rubble(marble?), so covering it with cement is an improvement, and it is not easy to drill either. Local materials are the norm, and marble is used for many things round my town, as it is quarried locally.

 

 

Just done a quick google search, and found this pierres-hexagonales patterned sheets

http://www.decapod.fr/materiaux-de-base/276-mur-de-pierres-hexagonales-ho--2001500059206.html

 

Sometimes they can be like that. But usually the hexagons are far more regular (as I said in previous post, usually an effect created by scribing the mortar). There is a particularly fine example to the east of Lyon Perrache where the lines join with those from Part-Dieu.

[IanStock]

Thanks for all the suggestions. At least I now have the proper name for it! The decapod image definitely shows the desired effect, but I work in 2mm and prefer to have some relief over printed papers.

 

For my sins, I'm trying to head in the finescale direction, so am being fussy over fidelity.

 

Must admit I can't work out why they do this - is it purely decorative? There's certainly loads of it around...

[IanStock]

I just get page not found with this...

 

 

Something here might prove useful too  http://www.lrmodelisme.com/21-habillage-de-surfaces-n 

[Mike Storey]

I just get page not found with this...

 

 

 

http://www.lrmodelisme.com/21-habillage-de-surfaces-n

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks for all the suggestions. At least I now have the proper name for it! The decapod image definitely shows the desired effect, but I work in 2mm and prefer to have some relief over printed papers.

 

For my sins, I'm trying to head in the finescale direction, so am being fussy over fidelity.

 

Must admit I can't work out why they do this - is it purely decorative? There's certainly loads of it around...

 

Yes, it seems to exist in all parts of France and can be used for large retaining walls but also for goods loading docks.

 

So it would be a very popular item with French railway modellers in the various scales.

[Mike Storey]

Thanks for all the suggestions. At least I now have the proper name for it! The decapod image definitely shows the desired effect, but I work in 2mm and prefer to have some relief over printed papers.

 

For my sins, I'm trying to head in the finescale direction, so am being fussy over fidelity.

 

Must admit I can't work out why they do this - is it purely decorative? There's certainly loads of it around...

 

Because it is the cheapest way of doing it. Stone is so much more plentiful in many parts of France, you can't even give it away, as I have found when trying to landscape my garden here. Every other shovel full contains a perfectly good size of stone suitable for walling. It is a major problem for farmers. Usually, when walling a house or barn, you have to use a breathable mortar (which can be expensive) so that the stones can dry out faster after rain or internal moisture, but which repels most rain externally. But for garden walls, retaining walls and so on, such niceties are less important, hence the use of bog-standard cement (often white/cream as well as Portland grey) and proud pointing, often smoothed to a rounded joint. This hides irregularities well, and most good builders can point around 8 m2 per day (I can just about do one m2 before my arms ache too much....).

[Fat Controller]

Because it is the cheapest way of doing it. Stone is so much more plentiful in many parts of France, you can't even give it away, as I have found when trying to landscape my garden here. Every other shovel full contains a perfectly good size of stone suitable for walling. It is a major problem for farmers. Usually, when walling a house or barn, you have to use a breathable mortar (which can be expensive) so that the stones can dry out faster after rain or internal moisture, but which repels most rain externally. But for garden walls, retaining walls and so on, such niceties are less important, hence the use of bog-standard cement (often white/cream as well as Portland grey) and proud pointing, often smoothed to a rounded joint. This hides irregularities well, and most good builders can point around 8 m2 per day (I can just about do one m2 before my arms ache too much....).

It also removes the need to do any but minimal 'dressing' of the stone, once again reducing costs.

There are a couple of variations on a theme as well. From about Macon south, walls around farm-yards and so on are made of 'rubble' stone, held together with mud. The walls are capped with large roofing tiles, and usually rendered with lime mortar, to protect them from the worst of the weather. For other buildings, corners, lintels and door/window surrounds are dressed stone, but the main body of the wall is made of random pieces of stone, and very large quantities of mortar. I suspect that the masons used planked 'formwork' to give the basic shape, as the structure wouldn't be too solid until the mortar went off. Certainly, modern masons I've seen using the technique do so. Both these techniques can produce very long-lived structures; my friends' farm in the Beaujolais was built in 1789, and is largely sound, given the French disdain for preventative maintenance.

[Mike Storey]

It also removes the need to do any but minimal 'dressing' of the stone, once again reducing costs.

There are a couple of variations on a theme as well. From about Macon south, walls around farm-yards and so on are made of 'rubble' stone, held together with mud. The walls are capped with large roofing tiles, and usually rendered with lime mortar, to protect them from the worst of the weather. For other buildings, corners, lintels and door/window surrounds are dressed stone, but the main body of the wall is made of random pieces of stone, and very large quantities of mortar. I suspect that the masons used planked 'formwork' to give the basic shape, as the structure wouldn't be too solid until the mortar went off. Certainly, modern masons I've seen using the technique do so. Both these techniques can produce very long-lived structures; my friends' farm in the Beaujolais was built in 1789, and is largely sound, given the French disdain for preventative maintenance.

 

Much the same here over in the west. The problem with rubble walls packed with mud is the number of gurt great trees and bushes that grow up through the middle of them, causing their collapse. However I discovered why they did/do it this way, when I repaired a stretch using only concrete and mortar, only for it to start splitting again the following winter! Doh.

 

The strange thing in France is, almost all substantial buildings were constructed entirely with stone and/or wood (modern ones use much the same concrete blocks found everywhere now, as labour has become more expensive than materials), but railway stations, and larger municipal buildings, were usually dressed around windows and doors and sometimes corners with very expensive brick. I guess it gave them a degree of importance then, which today we just find quaint.

[IanStock]

Thanks for all the helpful comments. Still haven't found any convincing materials in N though. There are some in HO - typical!

 

Not sure I want to scribe it all by hand though.

 

I found this which has interesting comments and even better pictures:

 

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php.?f=5&t=77995   

 

Ian

[IanStock]

Oh, that link doesn't work. Search for 'pourquoi pierres hexagonales?'

[Mike Storey]

Thanks. Very interesting commentary on the use of Hexagonal shapes to show their patriotism! This rings true, in pure Clochemerle style, but in practical reality, most, usable, large stones you dig out of the earth (around here anyway) are pretty much that shape already!! Truly God's chosen shape (until they went secular).

[IanStock]

Yes, I'm feeling very pleased with myself about that! I'm a reasonably fluent French speaker and the double use of l'Hexagone had already struck me before I read that. :-)

[Fat Controller]

Just by chance, I happened upon a British example of this style of walling in Cheriton, Kent, yesterday. It was the retaining wall between the churchyard in Cheriton, and the pavement of Cheriton High Street. It's the only time I can think I've seen this type of construction in the UK.

[IanStock]

Hmm interesting. I've never seen any over here. But Isuppose Cheriton is just about as close to France as you can get! Possibly an import?

[Fat Controller]

Hmm interesting. I've never seen any over here. But Isuppose Cheriton is just about as close to France as you can get! Possibly an import?

It could be; the church itself is built of dressed stone, but I suppose the wall could have been added at a later date.

[rue_d_etropal]

just wonder if we could have a few links to actual examples. I use Google map a lot, not just for planning journeys, but useful to find out what buildings look like.

Although there are some designs which can be found all over France. Railway architecture is a good example, but quite often with local changes in materials. I have taken a lot of photos in my French town, with the possibility of putting together a short article.

Material used can change within a few kilometres. As my town is still within Mediterranean weather zone, it is mainly low pitched roofs, but drive over the hill into next department and it is all steep pitched slate roofs. Slate roofs do exist in my town, church buildings, so suspect this is to make a statement. Bricks do not really exist round this area, yet Albi and Toulouse, not really that far away, use brick a lot.

I think it is mainly gravity that is binding my walls, as one is about 75cm and the other is about a metre thick.

I think it might be some of the older houses that use better stone and have had their cement rendering removed. The local council is pushing tourism, and has some interesting information signs of some of the buildings, describing how doors and windows changed over the years and their relative positions can be used to date the houses.

I have noticed over in Provence, that new buildings(villas) are build from breeze blocks, then cement rendered, so it is sometimes difficult to tell difference between new and restored buildings.

 

by chance I found this in village just departmental boundary

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Saint-Pons-de-Thomi%C3%A8res,+France/@43.5992972,2.7017205,3a,90y,22.48h,91.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sPW-PmTdGP_tLvWloLiHhdQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DPW-PmTdGP_tLvWloLiHhdQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D16.79003%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x12b1eae4fc95ed69:0x4078821166abd60!6m1!1e1

 

 

this is the same village, slate roofs and weather is colder, more chance of snow

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@43.6009572,2.7041387,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj4HyWhb9LR86M-f6rgYV2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

here is my town with a more Mediterranean look

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@43.4876171,2.7596602,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDspnxqMyZcTtoXKVhPhYJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[Fat Controller]

Not sure if this link will work, but this should give a view of the 'hexagonal' style of stone wall. Behind the trees is the line from Lozanne to Paray-le-Monial:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@45.9368812,4.5461855,3a,75y,90h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYk7RArbzb94lunjxzE6Xxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

 

One thing you see in areas with tiled roofs which are prone to high winds (the Rhone Valley south of Lyon, for example) is that the tiles have stones placed on them to stop them lifting.

I saw a marvellous farm wall in Bas-Armanac once; it started with a form of wattle and daub at one end, passed through hand-made and factory made bricks, with the most recent addition being in breeze blocks.

[Mike Storey]

One thing you see in areas with tiled roofs which are prone to high winds (the Rhone Valley south of Lyon, for example) is that the tiles have stones placed on them to stop them lifting.

 

 

Very common where the roman-style of pantiles are still in use (either because of local regulations or because they are dirt cheap) but most people are switching to interlocking roof tiles now (often called mechanical tiles), when renewing a roof or a new build. A pantile will slide off a roof or garden wall if you just look at it the wrong way. Well, mine did anyway.