Arthur Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Whilst stop/starting south along the M6, approaching the M5 junction, this evening, I was taken by this impressive Showman's Road Train crawling along with me. Excuse the poor quality photos. Road traffic regulations still allow Showmen to operate road trains on UK roads though the second trailer most usually seen these days is a smallish caravan. Here's a six wheel drawbar truck/tractor towing a 40' van trailer with a single axle dolly, behind which is a close coupled, twin axle, drawbar trailer. The Scammell Crusader tractor is a conversion from an ex army recovery vehicle. Impressive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernblue109 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You may struggle to explain this in court. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Being stationary when the pictures are taken? Looks like queueing traffic to me, and the rev counter shows that the engine is idling. Does not seem much like a struggle at all... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Been having an internet nosey on this, Can find info regarding licenses and MOT exemptions etc for the Showman's vehicles, but i've not found anything with regrads to trailer numbers and lengths. Where's that info hiding? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I have seen it, but can't remember where! One of the restrictions is that a Vehicle registered as a Showmans can only be used going to and from shows, all other use is prohibited. I think the maximum number of trailers is two, but could be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernblue109 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It is irrelevant whether or not the engine was idling. If the keys were in the ignition, as the illuminated instrument panel suggests, then an offence has been committed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Searle Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I have seen it, but can't remember where! One of the restrictions is that a Vehicle registered as a Showmans can only be used going to and from shows, all other use is prohibited. I think the maximum number of trailers is two, but could be wrong. This could be the answer:- If this combination is classed as a road train with 2 trailers it is allowed 25.9 meters, as long as the drawing vehicle is not more than 9.2 meters. Scammell Crusader ex army recovery are about 8.3 meters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 My error above, it is two trailers max. What you most commonly see these days is a short drawbar tractor, often converted from an artic tractor, towing a 20 or 30 ft. trailer with a caravan behind that. Probably little more than half the length of the one illustrated. They used to be subject to a maximum speed, not sure if that's changed and how that plays out on a motorway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 This could be the answer:- If this combination is classed as a road train with 2 trailers it is allowed 25.9 meters, as long as the drawing vehicle is not more than 9.2 meters. Scammell Crusader ex army recovery are about 8.3 meters. I did my c+e back in 2007 and not driven anything since, so I've forgotten all of this! If the drawing vehicle can be a maximum of 9.2m, then (theoretically) what would be the limitation for having a 9m drawing vehicle and a 12m drawbar trailer for other heavy haulers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It is irrelevant whether or not the engine was idling. If the keys were in the ignition, as the illuminated instrument panel suggests, then an offence has been committed. So, (theoretically), if I get in my car, put the keys 1 click in the ignition but not start the engine (so everything is alive but the engine isn't running) and suddenly decide I need to take a selfie, that would be an offence?....... ignoring the fact that taking a selfie anywhere should be an offence in itself! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 The maximum length of drawbar unit for general haulage operations is currently 18.75m, there is no specified minima nor maxima for the towing vehicle though it will comply with existing regulations for rigid vehicles. They can only tow one trailer. The key thing about Showmen is that there is long established legislation allowing them to tow two trailers. Of the top of my head, the military have the same ability as do recovery operators when towing a disabled vehicle. That allows them to recover an artic or drawbar outfit where the recovery truck would be towing two 'trailers'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It is irrelevant whether or not the engine was idling. If the keys were in the ignition, as the illuminated instrument panel suggests, then an offence has been committed. And what about the new Keyless cars? You know the ones that detect that you have your keys in your pocket, automatically unlock themselves when you get close and you just have to sit down and press the start button? If it is irrelevant that the engine is idling then presumably no offence can be committed since the keys are not in the ignition... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 With regards to the law on 'Hand-Held' telephones - the legal position is that whilst the engine is on 9including idling) the vehicle is in motion. The OP might have to explain the pictures if they ever make it to a court case, but I don't think that is going to happen. As for the pictures themselves, they are good and instructive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I've been told by the police that if you are in the driving seat and in possession of the key you are deemed to be in charge of the car, whether the engine is running or not. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Stewart, you are correct about the Legal definition of being "in charge of a motor vehicle", but the laws relating to the use of a hand-held telephone are rather specific about use. It is not illegal to use a hand-held mobile telephone in a motor vehicle whilst it is parked and the engine is NOT Turned on, the moment you fire up the engine the vehicle is legally in motion, even if the parking/handbrake is still applied (or on)! It is a small but significant point that some people have been caught out with, the same as breaching section 104 of the road traffic Act. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGERS Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Showmen have used two trailer road trains for more years than I've been around, long after the steam days that started it and circuses have been probably the biggest users. Fairground operators generally use artic units nowadays for the bigger rides nowadays but it's commonplace for them to have a paybox trailer tagged on to the back as well, a configuration which I've never seen in general haulage vehicles except for the roadtrain trial which Denby Transport trialled - http://www.denbytransport.co.uk/specialist_services/eco_link_trailer I can remember Joe Stevens ran a Waltzer set in the 1970s with a six wheel AEC Mammoth Major 6x2, twin steer drawbar tractor/ gen set pulling two 27' long coupled trailers and that type of arrangement was commonplace. More recently Stevens have had a Dodgem set with a 38', six wheel Volvo F16 box wagon tractor hauling what looks like a 30' trailer and a short paybox tagged on the back. Ive no idea what the regs are on this but I suspect it's governed by construction and use for vehicles taxed as Showmans vehicles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Stewart, you are correct about the Legal definition of being "in charge of a motor vehicle", but the laws relating to the use of a hand-held telephone are rather specific about use. It is not illegal to use a hand-held mobile telephone in a motor vehicle whilst it is parked and the engine is NOT Turned on, the moment you fire up the engine the vehicle is legally in motion, even if the parking/handbrake is still applied (or on)! It is a small but significant point that some people have been caught out with, the same as breaching section 104 of the road traffic Act. what about stop start technology? ?....... hat, coat, gone! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 Denby's road train trial came to a very quick and abrupt end. It was completely illegal for UK general haulage operations and it quite frankly beggars belief that they ever thought they'd get away with it. They found a loophole in the law and used it as a legal challenge to test the concept. It was driven about 100 yards from their gate, was stopped by the police and has never run since. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 I may be out -of-date here, but I think the max length permitted with a vehicle combination...without entering STGO etc, is 85 feet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Denby's road train trial came to a very quick and abrupt end. It was completely illegal for UK general haulage operations and it quite frankly beggars belief that they ever thought they'd get away with it. They found a loophole in the law and used it as a legal challenge to test the concept. It was driven about 100 yards from their gate, was stopped by the police and has never run since. Am I right in thinking that type of unit is common on the continent? I can see the benefits of the idea (route restrictions required!) But through my rose tinted spectacles I'd prefer the load to be on the back of a train. Another good sized road going vehicle is the lorries that make up air defence radar convoys, although I can't find any pictures! 8 ton trucks with hiab pulling the radar components, antenna trailer must be a good 40ft with wheels fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Yes, 85' rings a bell with me too though I couldn't be sure. Having said above that I thought two trailers was the max. there's a few photos on the net showing three trailers, here's one. https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/5595726937 I'm not sure whether that Denby arrangement is used elsewhere in Europe, the Dutch were usually considered the masters of such things. It is what is known as a B train, there is a fifth wheel on the back of the leading trailer upon which the leading end of the rear trailer rests. An A train has a self supporting rear trailer, close coupled or with a leading dolly, it imposes no weight on the preceding vehicle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 That Scammel gets around some. Is it still on the road? I photographed it back in around 2002 on Anglesey: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 My late father worked on the travelling fairground owned by Jacob Studt. The traction engines were mostly ex WD: General French was one mentioned. Most rides consisted 3 trailers and a 'living wagon'. That would have been early 30's. They tended to weave from side to side when in motion, making overtaking with a car quite difficult. Going down hills in the West Country was a difficult task. Not sure what regulations were in force at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Wikipedia to the rescue! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-trailer_truck Get past the American stuff and it's onto the UK and Europe. Even covers in detail the Denby trial. No mention of the Showman clause for UK though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Searle Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 That Scammel gets around some. Is it still on the road? I photographed it back in around 2002 on Anglesey: Scammel.jpg Still on the road Taxed until Jan 2016. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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