Colours

[RichardS]

Hi, I hope this is not a 'silly' question and apologies if it has been discussed previously.

 

During WW2 as we know, the locomotives of the Southern Railway were painted black. The same applied on the LNER and LMSR (not sure about GW) but the carriages were not - they were left green (or teak/brown and maroon as appropriate).

 

​Why I wonder were, either, the locos painted black or the carriages not painted black. The only thing I can think is that keeping black engines clean is easier that keeping coloured engines clean. Whereas coaches don't get so dirty.

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The supplementary thought that occurs to me is how soon where the locos painted or did some survive in Green for the duration? They can't all have been black that quickly presumably as they came up for repair. 

 

​Perhaps there's a book which provides this info.

 

I'd be grateful for any pointers or tips.

 

Many thanks.

RichardS

 

 

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[SRman]

I don't know the correct answer, but one difference between locos and coaches was the roof colour. Coaches had white or grey roofs but they naturally weathered down to sooty greys and blacks anyway. Once the war came along the white was changed to grey as a way of camouflaging them from the air.

 

In a similar way, London Transport changed their bus roof colour from silver to brown. Their trains already had brown roofs that weathered down to 'tunnel colour', a sort of slate grey.

[Forester]

Not a "silly" question, but an interesting one, not well covered in books.

 

Wartime shortages of skilled (and unskilled) manpower and material meant absolutely minimum essential maintenance.

 

Steam locos need to be kept painted to stop them rusting. Black was freely available so it made sense to use it when repaints became due. No skilled workers were available to do lining or detail, just paint it black, put a number on it and get it out of the shop.

 

Pre-WW2 coaches mostly had wooden bodies. To stop the wood rotting, varnish is as good as paint if the underlying material is sound, so fresh clear coats were painted over the traditional coach colours. No manpower was available for a complete repaint, only to touch up or paint replacement panels, and varnish, so they mostly remained the same colour as pre-war.

 

Some coaches were painted plain brown in the rare cases a total repaint was necessary to protect extensive woodwork repairs (another easily available paint, more suited to wood). I seem to remember some Pullmans kept in service in brown for some time.

[olivegreen]

Not a silly question at all!

 

Application of paint (though not in general its colour) is largely a matter of preservation of the material it covers.

 

As to why carriages were not painted black, I expect there was an element of keeping spirits up during those times by retaining where possible the pre-war colours of the transport companies within the constraints of availability and so on.  History records that even in the depression, when the financial situation of most railway companies was dire, liveries were maintained.

 

Even today, when black is trendy - or, at least was … I don't recall when it was but it must have been once, as in "(insert any word you choose) is the new black" - I'm not sure black carriages would go down that well with the travelling public!

[Nick Holliday]

I have a feeling that part of the answer is that heat-resistant paint, as would be used on smokeboxes etc. on all liveries, came in one colour - black - at that time.  The coloured paints used on locos generally were not heat resistant and needed to be repainted regularly to maintain appearances.  They also relied on a large number of coats to achieve the colour required, hence labour shortages would make this difficult to achieve, whereas the black paint already available probably needed fewer coats, no elaborate mixing of pigments and would cover any other colour in the process. Also a fair bit of most locos was painted black already.

I seem to recall reading that steam locomotives generally required repainting roughly every seven years.  This would mean that over the six years of the war, perhaps 14% of them would not have required repainting, and I am sure a similar percentage at least would have been expected to last out the duration.  This would suggest about a third of locos survived the war carrying the liveries they started it with, but that livery would be the latest, as applicable from, say, 1936, although there would have been some older examples that made it through.  There have been plenty of sightings of pre-war liveries lasting into the sixties listed in other threads here.

A similar argument may hold for goods wagons, although the painting cycle was a bit longer.  The large lettering that was standard on the Big Four after grouping was replaced in the early 1930's by the small lettering in the left corner, and it would generally be this later style that would have survived, and those post-war layouts with strings of immaculate large lettered wagons are stretching things a bit!

Perhaps the paints used on coaches be easier to apply and only require a single coat to freshen up the previous colours, and it would be easier to use varnish or the same colour for any new coat, rather than trying to obliterate the old colours unnecessarily.  Didn't the LNER have a brown paint that they could apply when the teak panels became beyond mere re-varnishing? 

British Railways did paint some departmental coaching stock in black, and a dismal sight they were, too.  A problem with black is that, unless it has been varnished, it tends to look more like fifty shades of grey, presenting a rather woebegone appearance to the paying traveller, even when fairly fresh out of the works..

[IWCR]

Initially  on  the  Southern  loco  repaints  were  still  green  but  with  the  lining  omitted.

Plain  black  was  introduced  around  1941.

At  the  end  of  the  war  most  were  black,  some  unlined  green  with  a  smaller  number  still  in  pre-war  lined  Olive.

 

Carriages  as  stated  remained  in  the  pre  war  liveries.

Malachite  green  had  just  been  introduced  priort  to  the  war  but  any  wartime  builds  or  major  repairs  would  I  suspect  be  unlined  olive.  (Confirmation  anyone?)

Carriages  were  an  important  asset  and  heavily  used,  on  the  Isle  of  Wight  however  reduced  wartime  services  resulted  in  a  surplus.     Spare  carriages  were  parked  for  the  duration  and  painted  plain  grey.

 

Pete

[petethemole]

'A similar argument may hold for goods wagons, although the painting cycle was a bit longer.  The large lettering that was standard on the Big Four after grouping was replaced in the early 1930's by the small lettering in the left corner, and it would generally be this later style that would have survived, and those post-war layouts with strings of immaculate large lettered wagons are stretching things a bit!'

 

Photographs show that large logo wagons of all four companies were still running post-war. Wagons were a low priority for painting so many of those theoretically due a repaint were left as they were, so the paint became heavily worn and weathered . Replacement planks were left unpainted. New open and mineral wagons built during the war were left with unpainted wood, the metalwork being black or, as some photos seem to show, in bauxite or grey. This saved paint but as the majority were built with English oak rather than imported deal, no longer available, they would last much longer. New vans were painted though. 

[Nick Holliday]

'A similar argument may hold for goods wagons, although the painting cycle was a bit longer.  The large lettering that was standard on the Big Four after grouping was replaced in the early 1930's by the small lettering in the left corner, and it would generally be this later style that would have survived, and those post-war layouts with strings of immaculate large lettered wagons are stretching things a bit!'

 

Photographs show that large logo wagons of all four companies were still running post-war. Wagons were a low priority for painting so many of those theoretically due a repaint were left as they were, so the paint became heavily worn and weathered . Replacement planks were left unpainted. New open and mineral wagons built during the war were left with unpainted wood, the metalwork being black or, as some photos seem to show, in bauxite or grey. This saved paint but as the majority were built with English oak rather than imported deal, no longer available, they would last much longer. New vans were painted though. 

It was the immaculate bit I was referring to as being far-fetched.  As you say, there were wagons with the large lettering running post-war, but the paintwork would have been at least 12 years old, and would be suffering from weathering and repiars 

[RichardS]

Thanks, for the information folks. Much appreciated.

RichardS