Castle Aching

[Caley Jim]

10 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Anyone fancy a Caley pug pretending to be a Furness loco 🙄?!

Now what kind of pug would that be?  An 0-4-0st, a 4-6-2T, or something in between?  They came in many sizes.

 

Jim

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

Re: the Hornby MGNJR 0-4-0T alluded to some way upthread, it's out now and it is... words fail me... it is orange. Very.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1136735/hornby_r30317_freelance_0_4_0t_100_in_midland_great_northern_railway_brown_railroad_range/stockdetail

Is it so wrong?

 

https://www.lner.info/co/MGN/livery.php

[Nick Holliday]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is it so wrong?

 

https://www.lner.info/co/MGN/livery.php

Or this

https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/magazine/modellersbacktrack/1992v1n6februarymarch.php

 

[papagolfjuliet]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is it so wrong?

 

https://www.lner.info/co/MGN/livery.php

 

I think so. It's probably the finish rather than the actual shade used which gives it the HV vest look, but asssuming the North Norfolk got it right the livery in the flesh is a good deal more muted. 

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/works-no-2107-harlaxton-no-100-0-6-0t/

[Nearholmer]

So, the Hornby one is a fairly-accurate-by-toy-standards model of an industrial loco, but painted in a livery it never wore in reality, while the NNR one is a different industrial loco, painted in a livery it never wore in service. All a bit confusing if you ask me.

 

[Annie]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

but assuming the North Norfolk got it right the livery in the flesh is a good deal more muted. 

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/works-no-2107-harlaxton-no-100-0-6-0t/

I'd go with the North Norfolk effort as the best I've seen so far, but with the added comment that it's not an easy colour to get right.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Annie
Um.........

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is it so wrong?

 

https://www.lner.info/co/MGN/livery.php

 

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

Or this

https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/magazine/modellersbacktrack/1992v1n6februarymarch.php

 

 

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I think so. It's probably the finish rather than the actual shade used which gives it the HV vest look, but asssuming the North Norfolk got it right the livery in the flesh is a good deal more muted. 

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/works-no-2107-harlaxton-no-100-0-6-0t/

 

3 minutes ago, Annie said:

I'd go with the North Norfolk effort as the best I've seen so far, but with the added comment that it's not an easy colour to get right.

I don't think that any of us really have any idea!

[papagolfjuliet]

8 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

 

I don't think that any of us really have any idea!

 It's complicated further by the fact that the embryonic NNR had two goes at the livery and that the other one was much brighter. http://www.peterboggis.co.uk/NNR_Archive/NNR-IM-17.jpeg

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 It's complicated further by the fact that the embryonic NNR had two goes at the livery and that the other one was much brighter. http://www.peterboggis.co.uk/NNR_Archive/NNR-IM-17.jpeg

Previous comment refers! The LNER.info source I quoted earlier suggests that the livery changed from a lighter to a darker colour during the 1920s.

[Annie]

5 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Previous comment refers! The LNER.info source I quoted earlier suggests that the livery changed from a lighter to a darker colour during the 1920s.

 

I was only ever wanting to know about the pre-WW1 livery.  These two images are what I used as a colour guide when I had a go at it.

 

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/midland-and-great-northern-joint-railway-440-locomotive-no-5-9523

 

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/midland-and-great-northern-joint-railway-440-locomotive-no-34-9526

 

 

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Annie said:

 

I was only ever wanting to know about the pre-WW1 livery.  These two images are what I used as a colour guide when I had a go at it.

 

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/midland-and-great-northern-joint-railway-440-locomotive-no-5-9523

 

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/midland-and-great-northern-joint-railway-440-locomotive-no-34-9526

 

 

...which look quite different from each other! Is CHE still regarded as a reliable witness?

[Annie]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

...which look quite different from each other! Is CHE still regarded as a reliable witness?

And that's one of the problems I had with trying to determine what was the likely shade of colour.

 

There's a page of a thread somewhere on the forum that has several photos of 'City of Truro' taken at different times of the day and different locations and no two shades of GWR green as evidenced by those photos were the same.

[Compound2632]

On 11/08/2023 at 09:22, St Enodoc said:

...which look quite different from each other! Is CHE still regarded as a reliable witness?

Didn't he do the NBR loco in tartan?

A great pioneer of pregrouping research and a founder member of the HMRS.

[papagolfjuliet]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Didn't he do the NBR loco in tartan?

 

 

He did indeed. 

[papagolfjuliet]

On 10/08/2023 at 22:40, WFPettigrew said:

 

Anyone fancy a Caley pug pretending to be a Furness loco 🙄?!

 

Etc etc

 

Or a Caley Pug in Midland Railway bright red (!) or Highland Railway blue (!), or a Holden tank in L&Y brunswick green (!) or...

[Tom Burnham]

On 11/08/2023 at 09:22, St Enodoc said:

...which look quite different from each other! Is CHE still regarded as a reliable witness?

He was born in 1909 so his observations of pre WW1 railways weren't as extensive as you might imagine from his writing. 

[Edwardian]

"Golden Gorse" was always officially a brown, IIRC, as Essery is quite insistent about.

 

A tricky colour to get right, as you say. Could be worse, could be Saxony Green.

 

Then, of course, there is this fake livery ....

 

 

Which, I suppose, thus became a protoype livery one could seek to model accurately...

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

E F Carter thought the colour was No.32 below.

 

 

 

He also gives “gamboge” and “light yellow”, presumably following contemporary descriptions which were just as vague as the ones given of colours by people these days.

 

No.32 does look very like the colour used for the GN&S pannier tank.

 

I’d be interested to know when and by whom it got labelled “golden gorse”, and what colour reference CHE used.

 

Its all so much simpler with Improved Engine Green, of course.

[drmditch]

On 11/08/2023 at 09:22, St Enodoc said:

...which look quite different from each other! Is CHE still regarded as a reliable witness?

Please excuse a naïve question, but who is/was CHE in this context? 

(Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis ?)

[Northroader]

In France, it’s “Jaune Havane”, in Italy “Isabella”, both referring to the large cigars (rolled on a maidens thigh, if you believe the  marketing men) I.e.tobacco colour, redolent of the luxury gentlemen’s clubs, as is the wargamers “antique leather”. Then there’s Stroudleys “I.E.G.”, and they’re all the same shade, quite popular on the PLM and the FS, besides the LBSC and the MGNR, go to an art shop, and ask for “ochre”.

Yes, Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis, he was really C.E., but Hamilton was a family benefactor on whom he depended, so the name was given prominence in his name.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, Northroader said:

In France, it’s “Jaune Havane”, in Italy “Isabella”, both referring to the large cigars (rolled on a maidens thigh, if you believe the  marketing men) I.e.tobacco colour, redolent of the luxury gentlemen’s clubs, as is the wargamers “antique leather”. Then there’s Stroudleys “I.E.G.”, and they’re all the same shade, quite popular on the PLM and the FS, besides the LBSC and the MGNR, go to an art shop, and ask for “ochre”.

Yes, Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis, he was really C.E., but Hamilton was a family benefactor on whom he depended, so the name was given prominence in his name.

 

56 minutes ago, Northroader said:

In France, it’s “Jaune Havane”, in Italy “Isabella”, both referring to the large cigars (rolled on a maidens thigh, if you believe the  marketing men) I.e.tobacco colour, redolent of the luxury gentlemen’s clubs, as is the wargamers “antique leather”. Then there’s Stroudleys “I.E.G.”, and they’re all the same shade, quite popular on the PLM and the FS, besides the LBSC and the MGNR, go to an art shop, and ask for “ochre”.

 

Given the close relationship between Johnson and Stroudley I do wonder if the M&GN livery was Johnson's tribute to his old friend.

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, drmditch said:

Please excuse a naïve question, but who is/was CHE in this context? 

(Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis ?)

Yes - my apologies for the undefined abbreviation.

 

See the two images linked from @Annie's post above, which are signed at the bottom.

 

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/midland-and-great-northern-joint-railway-440-locomotive-no-5-9523

 

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/midland-and-great-northern-joint-railway-440-locomotive-no-34-9526

[ianathompson]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

E F Carter thought the colour was No.32 below.

 

I think the colours have probably faded in my second hand copy.

 

I certainly would not vouch for the one that "fell off" and was secured with a dab of Evo-stik!

 

Ian T

[Metropolitan H]

I know one should never refer to models for colour guidance of originals long departed, but the livery applied to Trevor Nunn's "S" gauge model of the M&GNJR Hudswell Clarke 4-4-0T No.9, for his "Trowland" layout looks right (see http://www.s-scale.org.uk/gallery27.htm ) in colour very similar to the CHE paintings - and to the "O" gauge model of the same loco built by Derek Featherstone.

 

I believe Chris Featherstone - son of Derek - might be found on this Forum, or a related narrow gauge one - look for "Melinaur Abaty". He might know even more about the Derek Featherstone model??

 

You might also contact the owner of the "0" gauge "Norwich Victoria" layout and ask them about the source of their colour choice for the M&GNJR locos.

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards

Chris Holmes

[Metropolitan H]

Further to my post of yesterday p.m., I have done a bit of proper reading of Bob Essery's "Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway and its Locomotives" ISBN: 9781899889 37 2 - Lightmoor Press, 2009. I happen to have a copy on loan, but hadn't read Chapter 11 "Locomotive Liveries" before this a.m. - I have now!!

 

On page 146, Essery describes the origin and application recipe for the "Hydrate of Iron" / "Quaker Green" / "Improved Willow Green" / "Autumn Leaf" / "Golden Ochre" / "Golden Gorse" - M&GNJR loco colour (the names were all unofficially applied for the same colour) used from circa 1894 on - as recorded by Jim Miller a stalwart of the Melton Works paint-shop before the First World War.

 

It was :

- "Two coats of yellow ochre upom a lead grey undercoat, glazed with a top coat of raw sienna, and three coats of varnish".

- " The frames, wheels, outside cylinders, valances and steps were painted burnt sienna, a red-brown colour".

 

Both the yellow ochre and raw sienna pigments are both derived from "Hydrate of Iron" - a naturally occuring compound.

 

Essery also states (page 147) - "It seems that after the First World War the method of obtaining the light brown was simplified by mixing to a colour board, but otherwise remained the same hue".

 

Regarding the choice of the choice of the "Light Brown" livery, Ronald H Clark in his "Illustrated History of Midland and Great Northern Locomotives" ISBN 13: 9780860934349 - OPC Railprint 190, suggests that the use of the "Golden Gorse" colour was instigated by MRS. Marriott - to provide a clear link of the M&GNjR trains to the beautiful and colourful flowering gorse that abounded in the area the line ran through.

 

So I am even more convinced that Messrs. Featherstone, Nunn , etal., have got the "Golden Gorse" colour used on their models about right - and the EF Carter colour-patch isn't far off the mark, but might become a bit dulled with time. But the less said about the lurid version used by Hornby the better.  

 

Hope that helps - or that I'm preaching to the converted.

 

Regards

Chris H