North West Frontier

[Allegheny1600]

Howdy!

This is a lovely project!

I too must be careful not to get sucked in as I have too many projects for one lifetime but I shall certainly follow with interest.

It's really great to see something so far removed from the usual parochial interests on here, Geez! This makes me, with my broad range of interests, look introverted!

Cheers,

John E.

 

PS There certainly are Indian modellers, look up Vikas Chander although he actually models German outline H0 "Abendstern", it's very impressive.

[Mad Carew]

Allegheny1600,welcome to the Durbar (and thanks for the 'likes', which are always appreciated).  Do feel free to get sucked in by the way.

 

Thanks to everyone for their continued interest and support.

 

Now my post about the Jaipur-Churu line locations left a niggle.  I could not see why the filmmakers would want to change location, I mean film the Bhivandi Pura name board at one location and the station building at another. Re-watching the scene, the action seems to track seamlessly from one to another.

 

My conclusion was that the Alarmy stock photo was mis-captioned as Ringas Junction (http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ringas-junction-railway-station-its-architecture-influenced-by-local-23745680.html)

 

I looked up Ringas Junction.  I know places change, but it is nothing like the location or locations used in the film. 

 

I once more failed to find any further pictures of Nindhar or Nindar Benar station showing the building, but I did look up the place on Google Maps and I am persuaded that this was the single location used for Bhivandi Pura.  Look, if you will, at the shot of the soldiers approaching the name board.  See the start of the passing loop in the background and what looks like the start of a siding to the right.  Look at the shot looking back at the station as Victoria pulls away (sorry about all the corpses), and note the hills behind the station to the right.

 

Look now if you will at the aerial shots.  You can clearly see the layout of passing loop, trees one side, single platform on the other, with a building with a flat roof matching the layout of the one in the film. You can also see the hills behind the station.  Back on the platform, you can even see the white object marking the wall bearing the station name.

 

Now look at the faint black lines above the line and to the left of the station.  Are those not the traces of the sidings, the connection to which we see in the film?  

Edited March 18, 2016 by Mad Carew

[Dzine]

PS, I notice the locomotive on the refugee train looks rather like the one you pictured on the Kohat-Thal line.  No doubt this is a standard metre gauge type.  Looking at the still from the film, I think it might be a 4-4-0 rather than 4-6-0, and, if so, I reckon that your Kohat-Thal locomotive and your refugee train locomotive both resemble the outside framed metre gauge locomotive posted by Burgundy on page 1 of this thread (again, below).

 

I accept there are differences, look at the (steampipe?) casing on smoke box side.  It's there on the Kohat and 'Haserbad' locomotives, but not Burgundy's.  Another obvious difference is that the Kohat and Haserabad locomotives are outside cylindered.  Note the differences in the splashers, too. Boilers and boiler mountings are perhaps more likely than other differences to be found in locomotives of the same class.  Could it still be the same class that has been rebuilt at some stage, or, at least, a similar standard design?  Well, probably not the same class, the step down in the running plate to the cab seems to suggest that the Haserbad locomotive might have larger driving wheels than Burgundy's locomotive.  Still, there is a strong family resemblance between the two types, to say the least. 

 

Burgundy's locomotive is in Bombay, Baroda and Central India Railway livery, which perhaps suggests that this type did, indeed, run of the Rajputana metre gauge system where the India railway scenes were filmed?

 

Burgundy's engine:

Hi Edwardian,  Still a novice at getting image and text all together on one post, ah such is life!!!!  The loco image shows OJ 641 a 4-4-0 by Bagnell 263543 for the ex-Jaipur State Railway and is preserved on a plinth near Jaipur station.  It's exactly the class used in the film for the refugee train and would like to think that it was preserved due to its celluloid status, but I have nothing to prove this. Kind regards Paul

Edited March 19, 2016 by Dzine

[Mad Carew]

The Te-Rain – Part 3b, Metre Gauge?

 

I have put off consideration of an 1870s metre gauge train because I do not have Hugh Hughes’s metre gauge volume.  But, some initial thoughts occur.

Well, part of the problem is that the metre gauge lines of the NWF probably did not exist in the 1870s. 

 

Because I do not yet have a copy of Hugh Hughes’ survey of metre gauge locomotives 1850-1940, I have very limited knowledge of the types and dates in service.

 

For instance, the Kohat – Hangu - Thal line pictured earlier, was, I guess built around the turn of the Century after the 1897-98 Pathan revolt.  That axis was marked by a road and used by the Tirah field force, indeed, British troops had a very long approach march, as the Broad Gauge system had not reached Kohat at that time.

 

I have a photograph of one of the line’s original metre gauge locos (below), but this hardly helps with a grand old lady like Victoria.

 

I suggest, therefore, that any  1870s metre gauge locomotive and rolling stock of that era would have to rely upon the fiction of having been transferred from elsewhere in the sub-continent. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mad Carew

[nomisd]

T

 

The Te-Rain – Part 3b, Metre Gauge?

 

I have put off consideration of an 1870s metre gauge train because I do not have Hugh Hughes’s metre gauge volume.  But, some initial thoughts occur.

Well, part of the problem is that the metre gauge lines of the NWF probably did not exist in the 1870s. 

 

Because I do not yet have a copy of Hugh Hughes’ survey of metre gauge locomotives 1850-1940, I have very limited knowledge of the types and dates in service.

 

For instance, the Kohat – Hangu - Thal line pictured earlier, was, I guess built around the turn of the Century after the 1897-98 Pathan revolt.  That axis was marked by a road and used by the Tirah field force, indeed, British troops had a very long approach march, as the Broad Gauge system had not reached Kohat at that time.

 

I have a photograph of one of the line’s original metre gauge locos (below), but this hardly helps with a grand old lady like Victoria.

 

I suggest, therefore, that any  1870s metre gauge locomotive and rolling stock of that era would have to rely upon the fiction of having been transferred from elsewhere in the sub-continent. 

Thats not a metre gauge loco, its a 2ft 6in gauge Bagnall. Its one of the Military Reserve locos. There were about 3 dozen of these locos built and delivered from 1901 onwards. The one in the photo is one of the ones delivered with a 300 gallon water tank. The idea of the Military Reserve was to have a complete railway system that could be kept for use on campaigns. The original idea was mooted in the mid 1880s but nothing was done about it until the mid 1890s when there was an upturn in unrest on the North Western Frontier. 2ft 6in was settled on as there were more of these than 2ft 0in gauge railways in India at the time. It led to the Kalka Simla Railway being re-gauged from 2ft to 2ft 6in s the stock could be used on the Military Reserve.

 

The line in the photo is the Khushalgarh-Kohat-Thal Railway which was built from the NWR at Khushalgarh to the Kohat Pass and then up the Miranzai valley to the Afghan border.It was 62 mils long and had 16 of these Military Reserve locos. They also had some 0-6-2 Kitson built locos which came from another military instigated line on teh NWF, the Nowshera-Dargai Railway. As well as the locos they also had some armoured motor trollies, which were delivered in 1918. By 1921 the whole line had been converted to broad gauge.

 

The rest of the Military Reserve Bagnall locos never really did anything other than sit around in various stores(along with wagons and track and buildings), being inspected every year. One or two ended up with other owners but on the whole not a lot. The favourite snippet that I discovered about them from the files at British Library was that between 18th & 23rd November 1901 an experiment was carried out at the Loco Workshops at Rawalpindi where a section of 21lb track was laid to test the haulage capabilities of a loco, a pair of artillery horses, a pair of bullocks and a pair of mules - the report didn't say which could haul more but in a previous similar test they had found that mules could haul more than humans! They were used twice in anger  - for the 1902 and 1911 Durbars in Delhi where the whole lot was used to supply a passenger service around the Durbar grounds and camp sites. They were finally used for military purposes in WW1 when the whole lot was shipped of to Mesopotamia where they had quite a varied existence being used on around 5 different railways. 

 

Very little of it came back from Mesopotamia which meant there was no Military Reserve railway left in India after WW1. Which was fine until teh 3rd Afghan War started in August 1919. So teh Indian Army asked and got a whole lot of ex WDLR locos and wagons, which is how all the WDLR Baldwins ended up in India but that is another story....

[nomisd]

I'll save the the trouble of getting Hughes Part 2* - NWR didn't have any metre gauge lines. Well they did but they didn't. The Punjab Northern State Railway and the Indus Valley State Railway, two of the constituents of the NWR the other being the Scinde, Punjab and Delhi Railway, were planned as MG lines and started out being built as such. The PNSR initially had 20 locos of various classes and the IVSR had eight locos. The construction of both lines started in 1870-71. By the mid 1880s both lines had been converted to broad gauge. 

 

There were two other MG lines and one of them is probably of interest to you. Its the Bolan Pass Railway. This was built as part of the 2nd Afghan War, sort of. The line was to use 25 Double Farlies locos built by Avonside, which were ordered in 1879. However by 1880 they realised that they would need them so tried to cancel the order but it was too far advanced so ended up with 17 of the locos. One was lost at sea and one was sold to the contractor who was building Bombay port (of which there is a photograph of it working in the British Library collection and that used to be online, I will see if I can find a link to it). The remaining 15 were tried on two other Indian State Railways but were found to be unsatisfactory. In 1885-6, all 15 were sent to the Bolan Pass but by 1887 were all in store.  10 eventually went to Burma in 1896 and 4 ended up on the Niligiri Railway in 1907.

 

You can see why they considered railways for military campaigns - in a report on the 2nd Afghan war they estimated that somewhere between 30 and 40,000 camels had been killed during the campaign, which in pure monetary terms had cost 200,000 pounds. They also concluded that the requirement for camels , horses and donkeys had exhausted the supply in the immediate area.

 

The other line was a salt railway which was converted to BG by the mid 1880s.

 

* - still get it, its an indispensable book. The complete four volume set would be the book that I would take to my desert island. My set is falling apart I have thumbed it so often.

Edited March 21, 2016 by nomisd

[nomisd]

Here are the links to the photos of the Double Fairlie in use during the construction of Bombay Docks

 

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/apac/photocoll/v/zoomify56366.html

 

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/apac/photocoll/v/zoomify56380.html

 

The second is a particularly fine photograph - especially when you consider the equipment used to to take it.

 

Apropos of nothing at all to do with this conversation other than its another fine photo of a loco in India pre-20th century

 

http://livelystories.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/tour_19_raft_lge.jpg

 

I will do some digging and see if I can identify it.

 

And going back to the Military Reserve, here are a couple of shots from my collection. The first is taken at probably the 1902 Delhi Durbar of the General Service Trucks from the Military Reserve in use as carriages

 

 

The second is of four Military Reserve locos being transported on a river somewhere in Mesopotamia. The second loco in is one with the 400 gallon water tanks.

 

 

 

 

[Mad Carew]

Well, Nomisd, I must thank you for saving me a lot of time and trouble.  I knew that, starting from a base position of ignorance this would be a long climb to the heights of enlightenment, and you've certainly given me a leg up.

 

I will eventually try to get the MG and NG volumes of Hughes, but, for now, safe to say that MG is out!  If I want a NG feeder, I have to think about how to model 2'6" gauge in 3mm scale!  It might have to be 6mm gauge track, as the nearest I could get!

[nomisd]

I have done a bit of research  into this photo - http://livelystories...19_raft_lge.jpg

 

The caption on the page it is on states that it is The locomotive Akbar being ferried across the Jumna during the construction of the railway bridge at Kalpi, 14 January 188 with a link to the original photo in the British Library's collection. Sadly the BL have taken the photo down which means that there isn't a hi-res version of it in which the name or number can be read.

 

Kalpi was on the East India Railway, which means that the loco is a EIR E class loco. This was a huge class of locos with around 300 built between 1860 and 1867 by 12 different builders, including some very obscure builders including James Cross & Co of St Helens, Canada Works, Birkenhead and Robert Morrison & Co, Newcastle upon Tyne as well as the usual suspects like Vulcan Foundry and Dubs. As the name and number can't be read, its impossible to identify the actual loco - however, I highly doubt that the loco was called Akbar, its not the sort of name that railways companies gave to locos at the time (although I am not saying that it was an unofficial name). What is also unusual about it is that it doesn't appear to have a steam dome, compare it to this image of an E class loco from Graces Guide

 

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1867EnV24-p379f.jpg

[Edwardian]

Nomisd, this is all great stuff.  I am particularly interested in the references to Mesopotamia. I gather Mr Carew shares an interest here, and so I hope he will forgive the digression.

 

Some years ago, while I was still in the railway modeller's armchair, my son spent a holiday neglected by his parents and took to watching old black and white war films on the telly.  This had the result of Daddy revisiting all those Airfix tanks, 'planes and "OO/HO" soldiers that he remembered from his youth and making and painting them up for The Boy.  Daddy came across HaT Industrie in the process, and this led him to conclude with a "something for myself" project; essentially, I could not resist some 1914 figures, the French in their Second Empire red trousers and the Germans in spikey hats.  Of course, one then gets drawn in and I started collecting troops for a Mesopotamian campaign, Turks, Arabs and Anglo-Indian troops.  I did not persevere, but will probably pick it up again when HaT finally release its long awaited British infantry.  

 

Anyway, one of the attractions was the idea of progressing up the Tigris supported by 'Fly Class' gunboats, with supplies and medevacs using paddle steamers.  All rather reminiscent of the Sudan.  There is also the option of supporting the advance with a military railway.   I came across some pictures of an armoured train.  It might have been on a military web-site, or even here, I am afraid I cannot recall.  I think they were from someone's family album and I can only apologise for not giving recognition to whoever posted them.  Anyway, your Indian military reserve locos would seem to fit right into this scenario. 

 

[repeat "I must not consider yet another project", "I must not consider yet another project" ...] 

[nomisd]

Nomisd, this is all great stuff.  I am particularly interested in the references to Mesopotamia. I gather Mr Carew shares an interest here, and so I hope he will forgive the digression.

 

 

Well, now you have got me started (and hoping that everyone will indulge this minor digression but, hey its sort of on topic!) Personally, I think that the railways used in the middle east during WW1 is a much ignored subject. I carried all of my research as part of writing this, which has a whole chapter concerning the railways used by the Indian army, both in India and abroad. Note that British and Indian are used interchangeably.

 

The British got involved in Mesopotamia in WW1 because they wanted to protect the supply route from the Anglo-Persian Oil Co refineries in Persia and occupied Basra with Indian troops from November 1914. The Ottomans didn't take kindly to this and made a number of speculative attacks against the British. Emboldened by their success in repelling these attacks, the British decided to try and capture Baghdad and set of up the Tigris and Euphrates. This culminated in the battle of Csetiphon, just short of Baghdad in November 1915. The result was a stalemate and both sides withdraw, however the Ottomans decided to pursue the British which led to the siege of Kut. Despite efforts to lift this, the British surrendered in April 1916, which at the time was the largest single surrenders of British troops. The commander was replaced and more troops were obtained from India. In December 1916 the British advanced up the Tigris and recaptured Kut in February 1917 and then went on to Baghdad in March 1917. Due to long supply lines and the weather, the campaign halted at Baghdad. Fighting restarted in February 1918 and advanced to Mosul. An armistice was signed on 30th October 1918. 

 

That is a small pen picture of the campaign, now the railways. In the India Office collection at the British Library is a superb book published by the Govt of India in 1921 called The Mesopotamian Railways at War. It details, at great length, all of the railway systems used by the British during the campaign. In sort, there were eight systems used, ignoring the standard gauge mainline system (which you will be pleased to hear I won't be troubling us with but they did requisition some LSWR locos to use on this).

 

The first Military Reserve equipment arrived in February and March 1916 and was used to lay a line from Maquil Port, just south of Basra for two miles. It used three locos and 100 general service trucks. It opened in May 1916 and was converted to metre gauge by the end of the year (there was also a huge amount of metre gauge locos and wagons supplied from Indian mainline companies too). The operation to recapture Kut used a system called the Shaikh Saad Light Military Railway. It ran on the south bank of the Tigris for 21 miles from Sheikh Saad and operated from August 1916 to May 1917. It used four Military Reserve locos and 40 3 ton wagons. Four trains operated a day delivering 350 tons of stores, rations and water a day to the blockhouses on the system. The railway was also used to evacuate injured men. After the fall of Kut it was used to (and I quote) "to evacuate prisoners, boot and stores".

 

The next system was the Qurnah-Amara Railway which was built between these two places as the navigation on the Tigris was difficult between them. The line was 70 miles long and had 10 Military Reserve locos operating on it with 50 10 ton bogie wagons and 100 general service trucks. The 70 mile journey took 9 hours to complete. It was used again for moving stores and the history stated that "Personnel had to find accommodation as best they could on loaded wagons"! Six ambulance cars, built by Baugley were supplied in September 1916.  It opened during May 1916 and was converted to metre gauge in December 1917.  Following the resumption of the campaign in 1918, three lines were built from Baghdad - one towards Baqubah and Table Mountain, one to Fallujah and one to Hillah and Kifi. These were all built using Military Reserve equipment but all were re-gauged to either metre or standard gauge.

 

However, for me, the most impressive system built in Mesopotamia did not use the Military Reserve equipment but was 2ft 0in gauge. It became known as the Basra Light Railway and construction began in February 1916 using a mile of track by the Works Directorate as a reclamation tramway. By 1918 it had 8 miles of mainline and 14 miles of branches. The rolling stock was built on site using 40 Deauville bogies fitted with 50 cubic foot bodies. Later 30 ordnance wagons were obtained from Egypt. They even built their own passenger carriages from old Egyptian frames, fitting them with "garden seats with reversible backs", they carried 28 passengers. The identity of the locos used is unknown but six steam locos were used on it, they were eventually replaced with six Motor Rail locos (the identity of four of these is known). There were also at least two, probably four converted Ford tractors in use by 1919. By 1919, between 0630 and 2300 there were between 70 and 80 trains a day operating including 30 passenger trains. In January 1919 it carried just over 19,000 tons of freight (including reclamation materials, food and fodder, dairy products for the hospital, stone for road construction, coal, petrol and kerosene, mail and general freight) and just under 80,5000 passengers. It had a control system using telephones. It closed by 1922.

 

And just for getting this far some more pictures! The first is of one of the Military Reserve locos working on one of the lines from Baghdad. It is an interesting photos as it shows 1) an extra water tank leading as these locos would run out of water if worked over too long a distance and 2) couple behind the loco is a Hawthorn Leslie petrol loco supplied to the WD in Egypt - obviously at least one of them made its way to Mesopotamia. 

 

 

and a train on the Basra Light Railway

 

 

And I haven't even touched on the Indian railway equipment used in Aden or Persia or East Africa during WW1!

Edited March 22, 2016 by nomisd

[Edwardian]

Gosh.  What a terrific post.  There is a lot to think about there.  I can imagine a layout entitled "The Basra Light Railway" would do well on the exhibition circuit, the name has a ring to it and a certain resonance for the contemporary audience.

 

How fascinating.  I must read more.

[nomisd]

To bring us back on topic, I have been reading through the rest of the thread and something about the track plan in post #3 strikes me - would a real Haserabad actually have had a turntable? I think that it would have been more likely to have had a turning triangle. Triangles were very common in India, especially at smaller sheds and out of the way stations, with good reason.

 

Firstly, you wouldn't want to lug something like a turntable all that way into the wilderness when track, which you are taking anyway, would suffice just as well. Secondly, its mechanical and as such a bit of a hostage to fortune - you don't want to be sending a telegraph message to the Stores Dept at Rawalpindi for spares when your turntable goes wrong. And thirdly, given its a Cantt station in potentially hostile territory, the turntable is a ready made target for sabotage. Now I can understand why for modelling reasons (i.e. space) you would chose to have a turntable but I would suggest that triangle may be more prototypical.

 

BTW, I think that this is a superbly mad idea for a layout and I doff my solar topee to you for even considering it.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

Figures.....

 

In the past I've used HaT 1/72 figures to represent our friends on the Indian subcontinent and in the near eastern countries.

 

There are a range of figures available from them that are suitable for portraying the late 1800's early 1900's.

 

At one time I did a Sudan diorama for someone and used these for both a WW1 (Lawrence of Arabia period) which used these figures almost exclusively.

 

It did have some Rolls Royce armoured cars as well.

 

I wonder what happened to it?

 

No doubt some estate clearance effort saw it put in the bin - but that's what happens.

 

Thanks

[locoholic]

I don't think anyone has mentioned a couple of other inspirational books about railways in the North West Frontier Provinces of British India: the first is "Permanent Way Through The Khyber, by Victor Bayley, who was an engineer during the construction of the line from Peshawar to the Khyber Pass. The book was published in 1934.

 

The second book is "Couplings to the Khyber" by P. S. A. Berridge, published by David & Charles in 1969, which covers the lines of the NWR, especially the bridges.

 

I was very impressed in one of the early posts in this thread to see a colour picture of a train in the Chappar Rift - now, there's a line I would has loved to travel on!

[Allegheny1600]

A bit of suitable atmosphere for you, albeit in modern times;

http://vikaschander.com/shekhawati-express/

Cheers,

John.

[Edwardian]

Mad Carew, and any others interested in India, if you have not already done so, you may wish to see this build of a weird and wonderful Punjabi line (1907-1927) - Stubby's projects are always worth viewing: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103045-the-patiala-state-monorail-trainways/

[Mad Carew]

Some great stuff to come back to, thanks for the contributions.  I have made no progress, having been otherwise engaged for the last week. 

 

I particularly want to pick up on nomisd's comment about the triangle (which is presumably his preferred way of reversing his name!).  I would love to incorporate such a prototypical feature, but being unfamiliar with the practice, I wonder where I might come across a plan showing how matters were arranged? 

[nomisd]

A turning triangle is best described by this Wikipedia page. I can't actually find a decent photo of one in India, this is the best that I can come up with at the moment.

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Steam/narrowgaugesteam/postindependenceng/gwalr-2sss.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

 

Whilst obviously taking up more space than a turntable, they don't have to be massive affairs, as evidenced from this photo of a tramway example in Darwen, Lancashire. I have seen them in India where the loco just about fits in the two turning sides of the triangle. Here is a track plan for one in Australia.

 

 

[Mad Carew]

Simon, thank you for these excellent links and for the PM.  All very greatly appreciated.

 

It all starts to make sense, especially as I realised that I had seen one of these before!

[nomisd]

I have been checking some books that I have and have found a bit of a vein of information that may be of use or at least interest for background colour. It comes from "A History of the Great Indian Peninsular Railway 1870-1900". It has a section in it, which are actually extracts from the Railway Board Reports of the relevant years, concerning Railways and the Military. Its quite interesting that the writer of the book has chosen to include these as they have very little to do with the GIPR, they are all to do with the NWR. The first is from the 1875-76 Report and is entitled Railways & Military Experiments (any italics are notations that I have added)

 

Towards the end of the year, a committee was appointed by Lord Napier to consider how railways can be made most available for military use in India. As a preliminary step experiments were made at Delhi with vehicles of the Scinde, Punjab & Delhi line. A squadron of the 10th Hussars and 123 horses, including officers chargers, 68 grass cutter ponies, with baggage, camp equipage, ammunition, dhoolies (stretchers)  etc, fully equipped for field service, were embarked in high sided wagons and the train ready to start in 30 minutes. The unloading and fixing of the horse ramps took 2½ minutes and dismantling and reloading of the ramps 1½ minutes. The baggage was brought alongside covered goods wagons on 80 camels, the weight being about 674 maund (a maund is an Indian measure of weight equalling about 80lbs). By heaping up the baggage from from the line of rail to the side doors of the wagons, a ramp was thus formed and the whole, including camp equipage etc, was loaded in 27 minutes, with the aid of a working party of 25 infantry. Orders were then given to move the train across the Jamuna River. When the train pulled up, the wagons were disconnected, ramps fixed at either end. and the horses and men out and ranged along the river bank in 28 minutes. Re-embarkingwas accomplished in 32 minutes and the dis-embarkation on return to Delhi in 27 minutes.

 

Another experiment was made with the Armstrong battery The whole battery, consisting of three 40 pounder Armstrong guns, two 8 inch and two 5.5 inch mortars, with seven wagons, two storage cars, 134 bullocks, including camp equipage, baggage etc, fully equipped for active service, were embarked and rady to move in 40 minutes. The train reach Ghaziabad (about 10 miles distant) safely without a single mishap and proving satisfactorily that the floors, springs and bolts of the Scinde, Punjab & Delhi Railway trucks were fully equal to this severe test. The guns and bullocks were disembarked, the first gun being brought into action by the side of the line in eight minutes, the second in 13 minutes and the third in 24. These three guns were reloaded in 12½ minutes showing thereby what could be done with little practice. The ramps and girders designed by Sir Charles Reed for the end loading system were generally approved of. There appears to have been a general concurrence of opinion that it is very well adapted for military purposes. The only doubt was whether wagons so constructed would be equally suitable for ordinary commercial purposes, and the railway members of the committee, with one exception, made objections to the proposed alteration in the rolling stock, on the ground that the vehicle would be weakened and rendered less serviceable. The difficulty will however will probably be got over; but as the cost would be considerable, the change if applied generally, should be gradually proceeded with. The experiments above described were confined to the 5ft 6in gauge, as no vehicles of the metre gauge were available.

 

I shall do some more digging to see if I can find what Sir Charles Reed's ramps were but without recourse to the British Library, it may be difficult. The next extract is from the 1876-77 Report and concerns more experiments, this time however with metre gauge railways.

 

In January last a committee was appointed b the Government of India to report on the military capabilities of the metre gauge railways. The committee met at Agra, where experiments with metre gauge railways were carried out. They found that a first class passenger carriage would convey nine officers seated or four lying down; a second class 18 officers seated or 12 lying down; a third class 24 European or Native soldiers, in marching orders or 32 followers; that covered goods or cattle wagons would accommodate 12 British or Native soldiers in marching order with kit or eight British with kit and one EP tent, or nine sepoys with kit and half company pal (no idea what an EP tent or a pal are at the moment); that either of these wagons would convey 80 kits of British or Native soldiers packed in sultans in the usual way, or eight tents EP pattern, kettles and equipage not complete (with the exception of the poles, which must be lashed on the roof or placed on an open truck) or 16 sepoy's pals complete. The ordinary horse boxes or cattle wagons, admitted, they found, two horses with case and a third on emergency, if the animals are quiet and properly attended to. In the open trucks the accommodation would be the same, if the horses are placed longitudinally, but of standing transversely  four may be embarked in the same wagon. This arrangement, however, is not free from accident, in consequence of the heads of the animals protruding beyond the sides. A new class of wagon of increased length, suitable for four horses, is being introduced. Bullocks, they observe, are steadier and less liable to frights than horses, and may therefore be more safely conveyed in the goods wagons. Three or four small draught bullocks may be placed in a covered goods wagon and four to six in open wagons 13 ft 6in in length, fitted with temporary side rails. 

 

In reply to the question "Can a siege train be conveyed" the committee say there is no difficulty in conveying the heaviest ordnance in use in Indian siege trains on the metre gauge, or in loading and unloading it from ordinary station platforms and at all places where the break of gauge occurs, heavy ordnance may be transferred from the wagons of those of one line to those of another with great facility, by using the travelling or fixed cranes belonging to the railway, with the rate of transfer, with a single crane averaging 15 to 20 minutes for each heavy gun with its carriage and timber. Wit reference to the conveyance of a heavy field battery (40 ponder Armstrong) they are of the opinion that no difficulty would occur in its transport and that it would require 136 vehicles consisting of one first class carriage, 16 third class, 78 horse or cattle trucks, 33 low sided trucks, seven covered goods wagons and one ammunition truck.

 

Coming next, the Railways and the Second Afghan War.....

 

Edit as Safari doesn't understand Hindi and I can't proof read

Edited March 29, 2016 by nomisd

[nomisd]

I have also been looking through the photos on the IRFCA.org photo sever for suitable views of locos and carriages. For those who don't know about IRFCA, its the premier site on the web for anything Indian railway related and has been around for almost as long as the web has, having been started as a discussion group by a handful of Indian expats at universities in the USA in the late 1980s. I have just worked out that I have been a member of it for 21 years - that is scary....

 

The following are all locos, all but one pre-20th century. The first should be your go to loco. It was supplied to the Scinde, Punjab & Delhi Railway  by Robert Stephenson in 1872 and if you are going for true prototype, by 1905 it would have be the sort of loco that would have been relegated to secondary duties. It is seen now preserved in Pakistan

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Foreign/ghilzai/1872+Eagle.jpg.html

 

The next photo is is the sort of loco that would have replaced it - the SG class loco. This is actually a SG/C class meaning that it had been rebuilt with a superheater. These were introduced from 1905

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Steam/broadgaugesteam/preindependencebg/NWR+0-6-0+SG_C+class+1220+Harbanspur+1946.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

 

Now, something that more resembles VICTORIA, indeed is probably about as close as you will find - LORD LAWRENCE. Its that rare thing an ex-NWR metre gauge loco. Built by Dubs in 1872 by 1879 it had moved further east eventually become owned by the Bengal North Western Railway. It was withdrawn in 1924 and preserved and happily still survives.  

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Steam/Survivors/North/lord+lawrence.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

 

The last two are a bit off piste but nice photos. The first is a superbly eccentric 4-6-0T built by Sharp, Stewart in 1863 for the GIPR to use on the ghat (or mountain section) of their line  going east from Bombay. Completely nothing like a loco that you are looking for but how many 4-6-0Ts built in 1863 do you see everyday?

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Steam/broadgaugesteam/preindependencebg/gipr_ghat_Y43_SS_class_4_6_0ST_1863.jpg.html

 

Lastly, I'm not sure at the moment but again too nice not to have a look at

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Steam/collingwood/scan0198.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

 

The following are all photos of locos with trains. Mostly just outside  your proposed period but I think its safe to day that the carriages are all within era. The last is a NWR train.

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/img088s.jpg.html

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/img089s.jpg.htmll

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/img090s.jpg.html

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Steam/broadgaugesteam/preindependencebg/attock-bridge-william-h-jackson-1895-2.jpg.html (and  carriages)

 

The rest are all carriages. The interesting thing is that that no matter what railway these were taken on, the carriages all seem to be of a type. I am sure that there are differences but on the whole, I think that it is safe to say there is a generic look to Indian mainline (i.e. the big railways BBCIR, GIPR, NWR, MSMR etc) carriages.

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/vintgsan/book.jpg.html

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/Khojak/khojak_tunnel_shelabagh.jpg.html

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/Betul3.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Steam/collingwood/scan0193.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Edited March 29, 2016 by nomisd

[nomisd]

As nan addendum to my last post, I realised that I had not included the following link (well I had but I had forgotten to write a caption for it). It is a Bombay Baroda & Central India Railway A class 2-4-0T. There were eight of these locos built by Sharp, Stewart and Robert Stephenson in 1877 and 1881. They were used for suburban services in and out of Bombay. The class was withdrawn 1899-1904 and three (including this one) ended up as shunting locos, the last one being finally withdrawn in 1919.

 

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/13vint17.jpg.html

[nomisd]

Railways & Military Movement, Railway Report 1878-79

 

The rapid and steady movement of troops and supplies in time of war and internal commotion is an important element of strength, whether in the administration of internal or external affairs, and we have seen the value of a railway system during the recent advance of the army into Afghanistan. The greater the distance the more important are railways as military communications. It has been a subject of great regret with the authorities during the late campaign that the line did not more nearly approach the north western frontier than Jhelum, which is 173 miles from Peshawar. As an example of what was done, I may mention that the arrangements made by the SPDR for the daily conveyance in 24 hours from Delhi to Lahore (a distance of 348 miles) of two batteries of artillery, two regiments of European Infantry, 1 ½ regiments of Native Infantry and one regiment of Native Cavalry, being at the rate of 4000 men of all arms in these proportions. Between Lahore and Multan, the number of trains admitted of the daily movement of about 3000 troops in similar proportions, The average speed was 20 miles per hour, with 35 vehicles per train. By these means, 146,000 troops and followers (four fifths consisting of the latter), 15, 197 horses, ponies and mules, 6227 bullocks, 218 camels, 138 guns and 33,780 tons of commissariat ordnance and military stores were transported in 184 special trains during the operations.

 

Railways & Military Movement, Railway Report 1879-80

 

I alluded in my last report to the service which had been rendered by the railways in the prosecution of the Afghan campaign in 1878-79. When operations were renewed in the autumn of last year, the railways were again brought into requisition and the work done by them may be learned from the following extract from a report by the Traffic Manager of the SPDR. The following statement is from each month from September to the end of May last.

 

September 1879, 25 Special trains, 11,403 troops and followers, 3053 horses, mules and ponies, 42 bullocks, 302 camels, 42,449 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

October 1879, 65 Special trains, 21,806 troops and followers, 11.044 horses, mules and ponies, 1098 bullocks, 2328 camels, 12 guns, 160,142 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

November 1879, 22 Special trains, 20084 troops and followers, 18583 horses, mules and ponies, 30 bullocks, 692 camels, 296,717 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

December 1879, 14 Special trains, 13,478 troops and followers, 4673 horses, mules and ponies, 588 camels, 36 guns, 228,4352 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

January 1880, 28 Special trains, 26,318 troops and followers, 7874 horses, mules and ponies,  645 camels, 9 guns, 117,310 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

February 1880, 16 Special trains, 19,436 troops and followers, 2782 horses, mules and ponies, 85 bullocks, 342 camels, 97,087 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

March 1880, 5 Special trains, 11,892 troops and followers, 663 horses, mules and ponies, 300 bullocks, 507 camels, 97.085 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

April 1880, 7 Special trains, 9,538 troops and followers, 2,556 horses, mules and ponies, 2,425 bullocks, 1,932 camels, 226,377 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

May 1880, 10 Special trains, 10,868 troops and followers, 2,896 horses, mules and ponies, 288 bullocks, 1,268 camels, 70,000 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

Totals, 192 Special trains, 144,823 troops and followers, 54,124 horses, mules and ponies,  4.263 camels, 57 guns, 1,335,593 maunds of military baggage and commissariat ordnance

 

Up until the end of May 1880, the gross military traffic booked under Government warrants during the whole campaign was 336, 428 troops and followers, 80,702 horses, ponies and mules, 11,816 bullocks, 9,577 camels, 414 guns, 2,749,605 maunds of commissariat, ordnance and military stores and 681,653 maunds of railway material. 

 

 

 

[nomisd]

Another book that I have looked through is the aforementioned Couplings to the Khyber by PSA Berridge (whatever happened to the railway author who was only known by his initials? Whiter the LTCs and HCs now?). Berridge was a bridge engineer on the NWR from 1926 to 1946 and his book tells the story of the NWR from this point of view. Whilst mainly concentrating on the civil engineering side, there are some interesting insights into the operational side of the railway (and a splendid chapter concerning the Great Train Robbery on the Kalka Simla Railway in June 1942 - all very Boys Own stuff!) The book is excellent however about as rare as hens teeth (although I have just looked on Amazon and there is a second hand book dealer in the UK selling one for 24 quid. The usual price that you see them go for is nearer 40) I was very fortunate to be given my copy as a present. Anyhow, among the treatise on bridge design and building, there is a chapter entitled Motive Power which has some interesting snippets concerning types of motive power and perhaps more importantly, liveries.

 

In the 1870s all services were operated by 0-4-2, 2-4-0 and 0-6-0 locos with stovepipe chimneys. In teh 1880s, teh L class 4-6-0 began to displace these. By the time of grouping in 1886 there were 225 of the Ls, the last one being delivered in 1889. The L was the first 4-6-0 tender loco to operate in India snd according to Berridge the Highland Railway's CME David Jones took the L class as the model for the first 4-6-0s in the UK. Both the IVSR and SPDR favoured 2-4-0 and 0-4-2 inside cylinder locos but the IVSR had some unusual 4-4-0s which had fixed wheels rather than a leading bogie. The standard passenger loco was the SP class 4-4-0, although there were preceded by a slightly smaller M class which had "brass bands to their chimneys" (one would assume GWResque).

 

On liveries the standard was black with polished steel boiler bands and letters and numerals in raised brass. When Eagle (see post above) was displayed at the workshops at Moghalpura (which Berridge describes as the Crewe of NWR), it was painted black and lined in red and white with yellow (or gold letters) SPDR on her tender. In teh war years when it was displayed in Lahore and Delhi it was repainted Great Western green lined in black and yellow and a polished brass dome (one may assume that someone in the loco works may have done their apprenticeship at Swindon?!). Barrage says that he cannot ascertain what its authentic 1869 livery was though.

 

A driver who worked prior to 1928 reported to him that he could remember an L class loco painted in North Staffordshire red but Berridge assumed that this was for a special occasion, probably the Duchess of Connaught opening the bridge over the Champner Rift in 1927. An SP was also repainted into Caledonian blue when the Prince of Wales travelled over the NWR but he states these were the exceptions as "the established livery from 1886 onwards has always been black with the coaching stock mostly in Midland red". Out of the date period but interesting nevertheless, two XC Pacifics were later turned out in non-standard liveries for special occasions, one in Midland red and the other in brown lined in black and yellow