Woolwich Dockyard (working title)

[Kelly]

Thought I'd make a topic for the layout now something is starting to happen with it (there planning and thoughts stuff over on the blog on here too). The most recent entries below:

 

Key points of interest:

 

• NSE 1988-1994 era (initially)
• SE London area (Woolwich/Charlton)
• 3rd rail electric EMUs
• DCC (MERG)
• MERG CBUS system
• P4
• Modular
• Planned using templot software - almost finished.
• Lasercut baseboards from Tim Horn - to be ordered

Index:

 

• Planning and Research - Pages 1, 2 & 3 so far
  • Templot plans - Pages 1, 2 & 3
  • Area photos - Pages 1 & 2
  •  
• Baseboard building
• DCC/MERG/CBUS/Electronics
• Track construction
• Scenic items/buildings
  • Iconic structures
    • Chimney (pages 1-3 research)
    • Substations (pages 1-3 research)

 

Prior blog postings:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/17505-track-planning-with-templot-dcc-and-baseboards/

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/17470-%7B?%7D/

 

Updates and more information:

• For the latest updates to the plan see post 52.
• DCC/MERG/CBUS/electronics.
• Baseboards.
• Track construction.
• For some excellent and useful photos of the area to be modelled/based on, see unravelled's  post here.
• For the latest stock updates see here.

 

A bit about the layout:

 

The layout will be based on the Woolwich Dockyard area of South East London. Part of the former Southern Railway's North Kent Lines. The initial era is to be around 1988-1994, so firmly in the NSE era, but also approaching privatisation. I extended it to '94 so that I could make use of the '92s I have. The likelyhood is I'll run a timetable of some sort for a particular year at a time so the most likely is to be about '92 with EPBs being on their last years and Networkers just coming into service in small numbers.

 

The track plan and area have been chosen as they're rather generic in nature and fairly simple. With a bit of work in changed buildings both the era and the area could be changes. Technically any era from electrification to present could be represented by the plan with suitable removable items (all items except track and electronics will be removable for storage reasons). In practical terms it will likely be late 1950s-present as limit to era represented as whilst I could feasibly represent different era buildings and so on, I'm not sure it'd be practical to have colour lights and semaphore signals interchangeable (the point ridding would be a pain).

 

The track plan:

 

Originally I planned it in Templot and came up with this plan:

 

 

It looked nice with the sweeping curves, but I was never certain I could reliably build a crossover over a transition curve. I also wanted a single slip on the left, but initially struggled to get it right in templot.

 

Eventually I came up with the following plan:

 

 

With assistance from Templot Club forum, the single slip was corrected and the other aspects tidied up. This is 95% there, theres a few items to be tidied up, but it is about how I want it now I think.

 

Baseboards:

 

Due to space restraints I know I cannot reasonably expect to have the full 11ft (plus 4ft each end for traverser) set up at home, so the plan from the start had to be modular in nature so each section can operate independently and also go together in different configurations. Using Tim Horn's laser cut base boards allows this to be achieved I think, as I can rely on them being able to be matched up with each other. This is another reason why the plan ended up straight rather than curved.

 

The boards will be ordered from Tim Horn in due course, in 3ftx2ft sections, and one 2ftx2ft section for the level crossing. I'm still figuring out the exact dimensions and one board might be split down to allow a board to be 'dropped' lower to allow an underpass to be incorporated.

 

 

Control and Electronics:

 

I'm very much a geek and very keen on computers in general, so computer control has appealed from day one for me. But I don't want to limit myself to needing a computer to operate the layout, having it would be nice, but it isn't essential.

 

DCC is though. Sound would be nice, but that will be a feature for a later development. I am a member of MERG (as well as the EMGS and Scalefour Society) and so intend to use their CBUS/DCC system as it will save on costs and seems to work rather well. I want to incorporate an eNtrance eXit panel for the control of the points/signals. Proper operation of the signals is something that is important to me and my cohort Natalie. Thankfully a member of MERG has already developed something like this using the CBUS system, so hopefully I can adapt it for my needs.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Kelly

[Jerry1975]

Hi,

 

This sounds interesting, it's the same era as mine will be set in.

 

I wish you all the best with it.

 

Jerry.

[Kelly]

Thanks Jerry. I've always had a soft spot for the area having grown up around there and most of my father's side of the family coming from there. The era is the easiest to start with in some respects as theres stock readily available to some extent and it hasn't changed drastically in the area since the era i'm planning on.

 

It'll be the first layout I've built too, so something simple is best rather than the other plans I've worked on with Natalie in the past (Chilmark based MOD narrow/standard gauge and Lillie Bridge LT depot). Hopefully I'll actually manage some physical progress with the layout this year after years of not getting anywhere fast. Funds and space (and health) will slow things down a fair bit mind, but in that regard I'm not in a rush, which is better really.

[Kelly]

I have been working a little on planning for a short time. I've come up with the following sketched out drawing for the layout:

 

 

Attached are some google maps images of the area. It is still likely to be 'based on' rather than an exact match for the area. For instance the siding coming off in reality splits off north of Charlton, but I'm putting it with a crossover nearer the crossing and suggesting that traffic is going towards angerstein wharf or other docks etc, giving a bit extra traffic flow and interest. I've not decided yet if the lines behind/under the backscene houses will join up at the other end to allow running round. The plan above also introduces a gentle curve (as per the prototype), but again not 100% yet as that'd complicate the modular nature of the layout potentially.

[Kelly]

Have been playing with the layout plan in templot and decided to change it a bit.

 

 

The revised plan, with double track crossover rather than a single siding coming off the double track. More complicated by far than the original plan, but better scope for operation. Effectively compressed the layout of the real track between Woolwich Dockyard and Charlton Junction. Added a siding going to a home fuel depot as well as a hidden siding at the back for stabling. Also added a branch for the docks near Woolwich (in reality they closed in the 1960s).

 

 

 

 

Templot drawing of the plan.

 

 

The templot plan. I was wanting a slip on the left, but haven't managed to get it to work correctly yet, so for now this will do and is a bit simpler, if not great space wise.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Kelly

[nickysdad]

Hi Kelly, Best of luck with this project, I will watch with interest.

 

Mainly because during the time period you have chosen I was a Guard based at Grove Park Depot and worked over that section of line hundreds if not thousands of times.

 

You are quite correct the majority of services where operated by EPB's (which we recon actually stood for "Every Passenger Bounces" due to the thick springy seat cushions). The networkers slowly started to appear from late 92 onwards before eventually ousting the surburban slam door units to scrap mans torch in 1994.

Other passenger classes however you can also legitimately use are the Hornby 4 VEP's which operated some peak hour trains and the newly announced Bachmann 2 HAP's (which had mostly been formed in to 4 car units and reclassified as "4 CAP" with the two motor coaches and guards vans in the middle).

Although 4 CEP's and 4 CIG's did operate over the line they where normally only as Empty stock heading towards Slade green, Gillingham, Faversham and even Ramsgate depots and sidings. The Bachmann 4 Cep is not really suitable for the time period as it covers the units in their un-refurbished form. How ever again their is modellers licence and the Blue Grey on looks really good.

All the emu's during this period in that area where either Blue and Grey or Network South East livery. The Kent Link and Kent Coast brandings only appeared in either 1990 or 91 (am happy to be proved wrong as this is only from memory). Some of the CEP's where also in still in the short lived "London & South East (Jaffa cake) livery too.

Another type of unit which also regularly operated over this route was the class 419 MLV which in addition to running attached to CEP's giving extra luggage space on boat trains to Folkestone and Dover or on parcels trains where used to deliver stores to the train care depots. With Slade Green at the other end of your chosen line you have a genuine excuse.

 

Some really rare visitors that I also personally witnessed in the Woolwich area (both due to weekend engineering work diversions) where the VSOE Orient Express Stock on a cathedrals express to Canterbury East being pulled by Clan Line and a green class 55 Deltic hauling some Mk2 coaches (a summer only service ran in the early 90s several times a week to Ramsgate or Dover normally booked via Bromley South and Sole Street).

 

The majority of freight was as you suspected where hauled by class 33 & 73, however other regular classes seen are Class 47, 56 and 60's. All the freight traffic normally turned left at Charlton and headed towards Angerstien or Lewisham. Only the odd engineers trains headed towards Greenwich.

Cannon Street station was rebuilt in the early 90's and also a lot of platform extension work, Including the installation of DOO (Driver Only Operation) Cameras and Monitors. Which where installed at most metro area stations in readiness for the arrival of the Networkers so it was not unheard of for the odd train to run that way.

You could probably get away with the odd class 37 but to be honest they where very rare visitors before the withdrawal of the class 33's. I also seem to remember seeing the odd class 58 stabled outside Hither Green Loco shed, but again they where very very rare visitors and doubt they went any further south having arrived at Hither Green via Lewisham & Nunhead (I never saw one if they did anyway?)

 

I hope this inane drive makes scence and helps a little.

 

Steve

[Kelly]

Hi Kelly, Best of luck with this project, I will watch with interest.

 

Mainly because during the time period you have chosen I was a Guard based at Grove Park Depot and worked over that section of line hundreds if not thousands of times.

 

You are quite correct the majority of services where operated by EPB's (which we recon actually stood for "Every Passenger Bounces" due to the thick springy seat cushions). The networkers slowly started to appear from late 92 onwards before eventually ousting the surburban slam door units to scrap mans torch in 1994.

Other passenger classes however you can also legitimately use are the Hornby 4 VEP's which operated some peak hour trains and the newly announced Bachmann 2 HAP's (which had mostly been formed in to 4 car units and reclassified as "4 CAP" with the two motor coaches and guards vans in the middle).

Although 4 CEP's and 4 CIG's did operate over the line they where normally only as Empty stock heading towards Slade green, Gillingham, Faversham and even Ramsgate depots and sidings. The Bachmann 4 Cep is not really suitable for the time period as it covers the units in their un-refurbished form. How ever again their is modellers licence and the Blue Grey on looks really good.

All the emu's during this period in that area where either Blue and Grey or Network South East livery. The Kent Link and Kent Coast brandings only appeared in either 1990 or 91 (am happy to be proved wrong as this is only from memory). Some of the CEP's where also in still in the short lived "London & South East (Jaffa cake) livery too.

Another type of unit which also regularly operated over this route was the class 419 MLV which in addition to running attached to CEP's giving extra luggage space on boat trains to Folkestone and Dover or on parcels trains where used to deliver stores to the train care depots. With Slade Green at the other end of your chosen line you have a genuine excuse.

 

Some really rare visitors that I also personally witnessed in the Woolwich area (both due to weekend engineering work diversions) where the VSOE Orient Express Stock on a cathedrals express to Canterbury East being pulled by Clan Line and a green class 55 Deltic hauling some Mk2 coaches (a summer only service ran in the early 90s several times a week to Ramsgate or Dover normally booked via Bromley South and Sole Street).

 

The majority of freight was as you suspected where hauled by class 33 & 73, however other regular classes seen are Class 47, 56 and 60's. All the freight traffic normally turned left at Charlton and headed towards Angerstien or Lewisham. Only the odd engineers trains headed towards Greenwich.

Cannon Street station was rebuilt in the early 90's and also a lot of platform extension work, Including the installation of DOO (Driver Only Operation) Cameras and Monitors. Which where installed at most metro area stations in readiness for the arrival of the Networkers so it was not unheard of for the odd train to run that way.

You could probably get away with the odd class 37 but to be honest they where very rare visitors before the withdrawal of the class 33's. I also seem to remember seeing the odd class 58 stabled outside Hither Green Loco shed, but again they where very very rare visitors and doubt they went any further south having arrived at Hither Green via Lewisham & Nunhead (I never saw one if they did anyway?)

 

I hope this inane drive makes scence and helps a little.

 

Steve

 

Thanks for that information Steve.

[Kelly]

Some more progress on the plan in templot, trying to rationalise the width a little and straighten out the access to the traverser/cassettes, and also to  remove some points.

 

Added is a couple of hidden sector plates and some hidden sidings behind a scenic background to allow a combination of running around and lowering the need to assemble trains on cassettes.

 

[Al.]

This one caught my eye as I know this station well. I'm looking forward to see it develop.

[Kelly]

This one caught my eye as I know this station well. I'm looking forward to see it develop.

 

Thanks.We're not planning to feature the station,it being set between Woolwich Dockyard and Charlton in effect. Though the plan is hopefully to make it a generic enough plan that it can represent other locations with different buildings etc.

[Rich Papper]

Hi Kelly. This looks really interesting already. Good luck - looking forward to seeing how it comes along.

Rich

 

[Kelly]

Hi Kelly. This looks really interesting already. Good luck - looking forward to seeing how it comes along.

Rich

Thanks Rich. I'm hoping to have something physical started before the end of the year. The next step is likely to be to get a point kit from C&L to attempt before I attempt the points templot has drawn for me - it won't go to waste as I have a few ideas for some dioramas that it'd be useful for. Atm I'm concentrating on stock items as well as continuing to plan and tweak the plan in templot and discussing ideas with my co-conspirator Natalie.

[Kelly]

Been fiddling with the plan again in Templot.

 

The real thing I'm using for the inspiration is in a cutting between tunnels/bridges, so I want to replicate that to some extent, but without introducing much in the way of an incline.

 

One idea I've had is that the oil depot could be on a higher level, level with the tops of the bridge/tunnel so that road connection to it can be on the same level too. The exit off scene will go to a higher level cassette rather than a separate fiddle yard or similar for it I'm thinking. Not 100% how to hide it going off scene yet though.

 

I've also (thanks to Natalie's research efforts) worked out what the big chimney that is so distinctive in the area was/is. It turns out to be over 180ft tall and grade two listed and was part of the old docks, being part of the steam factory in the area. The area including the chimney was sold off to the Royal Arsenal Co-Operative society.

 

 

The closest I've come to it in model kit form is this kit from modelrailwayscenery.com. It is however too short by quite a significant amount, scaling to around 64ft tall iirc, not sure if multiples could be used to match a scale height, but I'd have to scratch build the base anyhow, so may end up scratchbuilding the entire thing eventually.

 

 

[Huw Griffiths]

If that tower is 180 feet tall, you might want to make any model of it removable - perhaps a push fit onto a plug base, or into a shaped hole in the baseboard, or something similar.

 

However you go about building this, it'll be interesting to see progress.

 

 

Huw.

[Kelly]

If that tower is 180 feet tall, you might want to make any model of it removable - perhaps a push fit onto a plug base, or into a shaped hole in the baseboard, or something similar.

 

However you go about building this, it'll be interesting to see progress.

 

 

Huw.

 

Will likely be a while before I start building buildings etc as focusing on the trackplan and baseboards presently and trying to finalise the size of boards i'll need (templot helps a lot with this as it can give grids in 1ft or mm sizing), then when money allows order one board from Tim Horn and another later and so on. Building the crossover is going to be the hardest bit I think somehow though!

 

As for the chimney, it like all the scenery and features will need to be removable for storage reasons and that allows the era to be changed by taking a building off and replacing with another or a plain board that goes in the gap and suitably covered etc. For instance the oil depot could become a milk unloading siding in an earlier era or a warehouse delivery point in a more recent era.

[Kelly]

I've been tweaking the design again a bit.

 

Having discussed with Natalie the proposed higher level oil depot I've elected to remove it from the plan for now. When it comes to setting up the boards I might see it it will work out by mocking it up, but the incline risks being too tight or too difficult to hide where it exits the scenery potentially. I might therefore make the bridge/tunnels look like they're part of a cutting by building the scenery up on the sides a bit. I have ideas of a module with tram tracks for when the layout is set back to pre-1950s and parts of the docks, but that will be a long way off I reckon. The idea behind the approach is to have modules that can operate independently where possible (allowing smaller set up at home and if needed bigger 8 car trains at a future date at exhibitions).

 

 

Revised plan. I'm unsure whether the bridge will be the scenic break, or to carry on beyond to show the tunnel mouths too.

 

[unravelled]

This isn't far from me so I'll be watching with interest. Let me know if you want any pics taken for reference.

One thing I haven't got my head round is the reference to sector plates. As I understand them with the current setup, you have one siding with two runround loops, as all you can fit on  the sector plate is a loco. You won't be able to run a train on to the outer tracks other than a couple of vehicles at a time. Or are you using that cunning lift over flextrack point fron the innovations competition a couple of years ago, which would do the job well. Another  option would be to put the sidings on a sector plate or turntable in their own right.

 

Apologies if I've misunderstood your plans!

 

Dave

[Kelly]

This isn't far from me so I'll be watching with interest. Let me know if you want any pics taken for reference.

One thing I haven't got my head round is the reference to sector plates. As I understand them with the current setup, you have one siding with two runround loops, as all you can fit on  the sector plate is a loco. You won't be able to run a train on to the outer tracks other than a couple of vehicles at a time. Or are you using that cunning lift over flextrack point fron the innovations competition a couple of years ago, which would do the job well. Another  option would be to put the sidings on a sector plate or turntable in their own right.

 

Apologies if I've misunderstood your plans!

 

Dave

 

Any photos from the area would be gratefully received. Photos of the tunnels/bridges/chimney/crossing etc would be of use.

 

As for the sector plate. It isn't intended in the same way as a turntable would be, but rather to remove the need for a multiway point. Basically it will pivot to connect to each of the hidden sidings. As it is hidden behind/underneath scenery points are not needed and likely to be easier to manage I'm hoping. It is kinda the same idea as used in a fiddle yard by some layouts, but on a much smaller scale. I hope that explains it.

 

This I found on a quick google search should illustrate it better:

[unravelled]

At the right hand end of that diagram, the sector plate only aligns with the adjacent track in one position. It can release a loco, but doesn't replace a point.

 

This is the innovation idea, which might do the job: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61640-flex-track-as-sector-plate/

 

I'll look out some photos, and will go back for some more in a couple of weeks.

 

Dave

[Kelly]

At the right hand end of that diagram, the sector plate only aligns with the adjacent track in one position. It can release a loco, but doesn't replace a point.

 

This is the innovation idea, which might do the job: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61640-flex-track-as-sector-plate/

 

I'll look out some photos, and will go back for some more in a couple of weeks.

 

Dave

Are you meaning the templot drawing? it isn't accurate in that regard as I suspect I'll have to figure it out physically rather than draw it out properly in templot to get it to work. It is a bit of a 'work in progress' in that area at present really.

 

The link you posted is similar to what I saw when I had a flick through the latest Railway Modeller, and may well do what I'm after rather than a moving piece of wood.

[Kelly]

I should point out I've not actually done any kind of curving or thought about the sidings other than putting some straight lengths there in templot at this stage too. The ends will end up curving inwards at some point.

 

I still want to try to figure out a single slip for the bottom left point arrangement to condense that a little more possibly.

[unravelled]

Sorry, I was referring to the standalone diagram of the sector plate at the end of your post #18.

 

Anyway some photos which I hope are close enough to the area.

 

First 3 photos at Maryon Park

 

 

 

 

The junction west of Charlton, from Victoria Way

 

 

 

And finally, an irrelevant picture on the branch to Angerstein wharf. I like it as it's so unexpected a scene in London.

 

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

 

 

[Kelly]

Sorry, I was referring to the standalone diagram of the sector plate at the end of your post #18.

 

Anyway some photos which I hope are close enough to the area.

 

First 3 photos at Maryon Park

 

Ah, the standalone diagram was really only to illustrate what I was meaning than anything else.

 

Thanks for those Dave. The pictures of the junction are very useful, especially with the retaining walls and the substation building in the background.

 

Feel free to post any other relevant photos you find, or if you'd prefer to email them drop me an email.

 

Once again, thanks.

[rob D2]

Interesting plan - don't see many third rail layouts even these days.

 

I would have thought you'd compress the chimney a bit anyway as 72cm may dominate the model a bit much ?

 

Like the views of anger stein as well - surprised no one has ever modelled this on the Thames complete with millennium dome

[Kelly]

Interesting plan - don't see many third rail layouts even these days.

 

I would have thought you'd compress the chimney a bit anyway as 72cm may dominate the model a bit much ?

 

Like the views of anger stein as well - surprised no one has ever modelled this on the Thames complete with millennium dome

 

Thanks. Yes, I'll have to compress it as 2ft+ would dominate the layout a bit too much, not to mention the difficulty of storage. It'll be set back a bit from the layout somehow perhaps though to give it a bit of perspective, whether I've enough room for that I'm not sure as I don't really want to go much beyond 2ft width on the main boards if I can help it (it'll be over 11ft long in its full length as it is).

 

Whilst I'd like to model parts of angerstein wharf, it is a bit outside the scope of what I can realistically fit in. I might do a small bit of it at a later stage as a addon module, but that all depends on whether such a thing proves viable to store etc.