MKD kits and connection to Wills

[rue_d_etropal]

Something that has been bugging me for a few years. I raised question a few years ago when there was a Hornby International themed contest for models and layouts.

I remembered having had some MKD kits from my parents, including brick and tile sheets, and these were obviously the same as Wills OO scale kits, or one included parts from Wills kits. i have read in past comments that the signal box was rescaled but think this unlikely. I have noticed that some MKD kits still seem to have parts of Wills in them. The garden sheds are common, the shop fronts can be found, and the concrete walling is also offered. Interestingly prices are higher than original Wills versions.

Pesumably this connection between MKD and Wills dates from pre Peco ownership, although Peco have had their products packaged with other makes, and are making the OO9 wagons Bachmann are sellling in their Thomas OO9/HOe sets.

When I originally mentioned this to someone at Peco, they were not aware of any connection between MKD and Wills/Peco, so wonder if anyone here can shed some light on it.

It is of interest now as Hornby have MKD, and the MKD webpage has what looks like Wills originated kits or parts.

A quick search on ebay, came up with both girder bridges in MKD boxes. Probably old models but maybe most of range was produced with MKD boxes.

[Joseph_Pestell]

When I retailed in France, I  used to import the Wills kits and sell them at way below the MKD price. Made me popular with modellers but not with M & Mme Lanter!

 

We are talking 25 years ago and these items had already been available for a few years then. Did Wills mould their own? Common factor might be Pola who did a lot of rebranded/modified stuff in the MKD range such as the Gendarmerie.

[SRman]

Funnily enough, Joseph, I bought the MKD Saxby & Farmer signal box kit here in Australia (again, many years ago!), and it was around one-third of the price of the Wills kit. It is clearly the Wills kit but with a different roof. I used some Wills tiles I already had to replace the kit roof.

I still have that signal box in use, fitted with an interior, and only needing a repair to the stairs, which have fallen apart only recently after an accidental knock.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I never stocked the signal box as it was notably oversized for HO (especially when so many "HO" buildings are to 1:100). But items such as the typically French concrete fencing were much cheaper from Wills than from MKD.

[rue_d_etropal]

some of the current MKD models have Wills items in them. The sheds, the garage, and the shop fronts are often seen. I think the concrete fencing is also available. One theory is that MKD had bought a large stock of bits from Wills, and are using them.

[Joseph_Pestell]

some of the current MKD models have Wills items in them. The sheds, the garage, and the shop fronts are often seen. I think the concrete fencing is also available. One theory is that MKD had bought a large stock of bits from Wills, and are using them.

That seems a bit unlikely to me.

[rue_d_etropal]

looking at what is on MKD website, it looks like some kits are no longer available, but found this online http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MKD-667-MAQUETTE-ETABLE-FERME-ECHELLE-HO-/381765418359?hash=item58e2fdfd77:g:RL4AAOSwgmJX0rvp

 

This is 100% Wills as far as I can tell. It has been suggested to me by someone at Peco that the Wills parts must be old stock as Peco are not supplying themto MKD now. If you look carefully in the MKB website,one of the shops looks like it uses the Wills shop front.

[Pacific231G]

MKD is now one of Hornby's brands but it came up on the web via Hornby France and not via Jouef. I was never clear about its relationship with Jouef as it was co-founded by Jouef's marketting manager but appeared to be quasi independent. It's now definitely a Hornby brand so I wondered if it had a market beyond model railways. There are a few items in the current MKD catalogue http://www.Hornby.fr/#2 that I'm sure were once Jouef including the Gare de Villiers which appears identical to the old Jouef Gare de Villeneuve. Most are decidedly underscale and always have been. .

 

The Wills SS43 concrete fencing mouldings are identical to those supplied by MKD as MK570 but they're so characteristically French - especially two of the four designs- and so not characteristically British that I tnink they must have originated in France. The MKD version is in the current online catalogue but seems to be unavaiable through most retailers at the moment but it was over twice the price of the Wills equivalent.

 

I suppose it's possible that Wills were doing the injection moulding for MKD, perhaps in return for the rights to market certain items for the Briitish 00 market. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

MKD was founded by Olivier and Martine Lanter, and with help from Alain Pras, when they left Jouef. Not linked at that stage as MKDs main activity was importing Lima and Rivarossi into France as well as Scalextric.

 

Then Jouef went belly-up and was taken over by Lima (a deal about which, the less said the better!).

 

So MKD lost its Lima/Rivarossi activity at the same time as encountering more competition in the plastic buildings kits market from SAI (Auhagen).

 

So when MKD also went belly-up, its previous links with Hornby for Scalextric made it a sensible option for Hornby.

[rue_d_etropal]

Wills has been under Peco ownership for quite a few years now, and as far as I know, nothing has been supplied to MKD in that time. This means that the Wills items in MKD range are old stock, and it does look like the range is getting smaller, somaybe Hornby are quietly running it down. Pity as there are not many French building kits around. Man are northern Europe, making modelling anything Mediteranean difficult these days.

In some ways it is a pity Hornby did take over. As has been found with Heller, once it broke from Airfix, it re-emerged a few years later(maybe for contactual reasons), and is developing new kits. Given that some Heller kits are now under Airfix and vica-versa, it must make for some interesting company discussions. If MKD had just been dropped, maybe someone else could have done something with in, possibly relinking with Wills.

 

The concrete garden fencing, I always though was based on typical home counties suburban fencing. Marleys and other companies produced a lot of differnt buildings and garden items in concrete(I did a holiday job at Marleys and it was interesting to see how these buildings  were made).

The Art Deco style might have been influenced by French design.but I would not go as far to say some of the designs actually originated in France. I might be wrong, but it really needs an architectal history expert to judge. There is some very distinctive French railway/industrial arhitecture that did not come across the Channel( the round topped utility buildings and engine sheds). The concrete French signal boxes are similar to those the Southern Railway did, but not sure if there was any corroboration. I am nit sure if they are pre or post war.  I have a nice design for a couple of these in Loco Revue magazine. At some stage I might design one for 3D printing.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Your reading of the situation is based on the premise that these items belong to Wills (Peco) rather than possibly a third party (Pola?) who is selling  them to both Wills and MKD (Hornby International).

Certainly true though that the MKD range has shrunk and got much harder to find.

[rue_d_etropal]

The items I am referring to are definitely Wills/Peco . I have followed the Wills range since seeing it at London Central Hall exhibition in the 70s. Even some of the publicity photos(still used) for Wills date from then. As far as I know Pola never supplied to Wills, and all Wills products are produced down in Devon.

It does seem odd that Hornby should take over MKD, but then not develop it. Maybe they hoped to be able to send them off to China or India to be cloned, but found they could not do that as they did not own all the designs. 

I Know the trend has been towards r2p, but the r2p models produced for continent have not been as successful as British models. There was a part work magazine which was using MKD kits . I have seen it for sale on ebay, but have never actually seen it on sale elsewhere.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The items I am referring to are definitely Wills/Peco . I have followed the Wills range since seeing it at London Central Hall exhibition in the 70s. Even some of the publicity photos(still used) for Wills date from then. As far as I know Pola never supplied to Wills, and all Wills products are produced down in Devon.

It does seem odd that Hornby should take over MKD, but then not develop it. Maybe they hoped to be able to send them off to China or India to be cloned, but found they could not do that as they did not own all the designs. 

I Know the trend has been towards r2p, but the r2p models produced for continent have not been as successful as British models. There was a part work magazine which was using MKD kits . I have seen it for sale on ebay, but have never actually seen it on sale elsewhere.

 

Back then, Wills had not become part of Peco (via Ratio) so I don't think that their stuff was being made in Devon then (indeed Ratio may still have been in Sturminster at that point).

 

I still think that Pola is the common point. Some of the Peco building kits are theirs.

[rue_d_etropal]

My point is that since Wills has been owned by Peco it has been produced in Devon. Quite a few old companies were still around producing bits for other copanies. Noticed on some tram kits that Keyser actually manufactured them. Pola may have produced some items for Peco, but I have never seen it mentioned anyway. They produced a lot for other companes, often with different packaging, and the current Gaugemaster kits are from this same source, although it is now Faller not Pola.

I do remember having packs of brick or similar from MKD, bagged, but still with Wills on back of plastic sheets, and costing more than original Wills product. If it was actually produced by Pola, then I would either expect Pola name on it, or Wills to own full design rights, which would also scupper any other company producing them. I do wonder if Hornby thought they were geting more than they thought. They did have a lot of discussions with Dapol when they took over the old Airfix range, and Dapol are still producing the LMS coaches much cheaper than anything Hornby have produced. Hornby upped many prices on older models just to cross subsidise newer models.

The pity is that there are now fewer french plastic kits around. Northern French buildings could be adapted from more Germanic themed models, but southern and Mediteranean ones are less well provided for. Possibly one reason for rise in card  and resin kits, but at a higher price. Maybe the market is not big enough, but it is opening door for new technology such as 3D printing, which is what I am using to produce some of my buildings now.

 

Much of what I say is speculation, but it is also based on piecing together what both Hornby representatives and Peco staff  have told me.

[Joseph_Pestell]

My point is that since Wills has been owned by Peco it has been produced in Devon. Quite a few old companies were still around producing bits for other copanies. Noticed on some tram kits that Keyser actually manufactured them. Pola may have produced some items for Peco, but I have never seen it mentioned anyway. They produced a lot for other companes, often with different packaging, and the current Gaugemaster kits are from this same source, although it is now Faller not Pola.

I do remember having packs of brick or similar from MKD, bagged, but still with Wills on back of plastic sheets, and costing more than original Wills product. If it was actually produced by Pola, then I would either expect Pola name on it, or Wills to own full design rights, which would also scupper any other company producing them. I do wonder if Hornby thought they were geting more than they thought. They did have a lot of discussions with Dapol when they took over the old Airfix range, and Dapol are still producing the LMS coaches much cheaper than anything Hornby have produced. Hornby upped many prices on older models just to cross subsidise newer models.

The pity is that there are now fewer french plastic kits around. Northern French buildings could be adapted from more Germanic themed models, but southern and Mediteranean ones are less well provided for. Possibly one reason for rise in card  and resin kits, but at a higher price. Maybe the market is not big enough, but it is opening door for new technology such as 3D printing, which is what I am using to produce some of my buildings now.

 

Much of what I say is speculation, but it is also based on piecing together what both Hornby representatives and Peco staff  have told me.

 

Peco N gauge buildings, in the catalogue since the 1960s, are certainly Pola.

 

I agree with you about the lack of plastic kits for southern French buildings. As you say, probably judged that there is not a big enough market to justify the tooling. Back in the day, I was looking at doing some vac-formed kits similar to Langley.

 

There are of course some very nice plaster kits from French artisans and Artitec do quite a range of buildings suitable for Northern France.

[Pacific231G]

The pity is that there are now fewer french plastic kits around. Northern French buildings could be adapted from more Germanic themed models, but southern and Mediteranean ones are less well provided for. Possibly one reason for rise in card  and resin kits, but at a higher price. Maybe the market is not big enough, but it is opening door for new technology such as 3D printing, which is what I am using to produce some of my buildings now.

 

Much of what I say is speculation, but it is also based on piecing together what both Hornby representatives and Peco staff  have told me.

Hi Simon 

A lot of Peco's manufacturing expertise is in high quality injection moulding so Wills kits would be a natural product for Seaton. It's interesting that L-R Presse (who publish Loco-Revue) have branched out into high quality card kits for buildings with "Régions et Compagnies" clearly based on their knowledge of design and printing and are planning to launch a complete layout kit in a box product based on a heavy card based baseboard (the track will be Peco).

 

I'm not sure there ever were that many more plastic kits around for specifically French prototypes (or even for typically French buildings). It was originally Jouef and then MKD with a few, mostly railway, buildings from Faller. Hornby France have included some of the orginally Jouef railway buildings - the Gare de Villeneuve is now Villiers-  in their current MKD range. Did anyone else produce a range of typically French buildings? 

 

Both ranges were notoriously underscale , the consensus among French modellers  (e.g in  http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15409 )  seems to be that Jouef were about 1:120 and MKD about 1:100 which I believe is a scale widely used for architectural models and agrees with my own comparisons with actual prototype drawings.

 

I never found the reduced scale a problem for buildings behind the railway - forced prespective and all that- but when I built an Artitec "facade" corner café (AR10233) which is to scale my Café de la Gare looked absurdly large on the street behind my station building whch is a modified Jouef Gare de Neuvy.  

 

I'm not sure that scale bothered most French modellers that much either but some clearly do want buildings to proper 1:87 scale and, perhaps more to the point, models of buildings relevant to the region and company they are modelling. In France a lot of railway buildings were built by contractors to very similar designs; that probably made the use of "generic" buildings rather less of sore thumb than it was when British layouts often used the same Bilteezi or Superquick kits for a GW or an LNER station. It does though tend to make the non-railway scene seem a bit "I've been here before"

 

If you build a layout over several years* then you're probably only going to have one or two stations and a couple of level crossings so the extra cost of a card, plaster or resin model of a specific building from Sud Modelisme,  Régions et Compagnies or Architecture de France doesn't look quite so off-putting when you compare it  with the prices of rolling stock.

 

*The "exhibition layout" replaced after a few years seems far less a feature of French modelling than of ours

[Andy Hayter]

Simon

although I am open to be corrected, I cannot immediately think of any Faller non-railway kit that could be easily adopted for Northern France.  I am building a layout based on an imaginary  through Paris station  and have picked up a couple of Faller large city centre building kits and they all (with hind sight) do not really fit the role/style.  The only ones that do are the two specifically built for the French market - and even then I am not totally convinced about their use for Paris - but it is going to happen anyway with 30ft of back scene to fill.  . 

 

The Jouef multi- story buildings are more in character (Hausmann style), but the prices being asked are rather high given the number I need.  [Thankfully I have a large stock already.]

[Joseph_Pestell]

The Jouef modular buildings are a clever idea and I am surprised that no other manufacturer has developed the idea further. Perhaps something there for Simon.

[rue_d_etropal]

I had not looked too closely at some Jouef buildings. Might be slightly under scale. If some of the MKD ones are underscale then that would make the size difference to Wills even more obvious.

I have a Pola kit for a cement renderered station building. Keep intending to use it. Although it is marked as a German building, it is much more Mediteranean looking. Italeri have done some buildings, but scale is 1/72. I have used them as they still look OK. One reason the south gets ignored by manufacturers is possibly because many military modellers only model the northern campaigns, not the southern ones. This is pretty evident from the range of laser cut kits available. Having said that, architecture can vary over a short distance in the south, dependent on weather.

 

There do seem to be a lot of card kits available, and not cheap. I now have all the 'Clés pour le train miniature' downloaded, but had to buy one back issue as well. The card designs I plan to use as inspiration. There are quite a few articles on the resin kits, which actually look reasonably priced. One magazine had variations of the same building for different regions.

I model in various scales including 5.5mm/ft, and the 28mm laser cut buildings are close enough.Again nothing for Mediteranean, but some Mexican buildings(Spanish origins) are suitable. Also some North African buildings can be adapted(I have done this in 1/35th scale, as well as my Ile de Singe HO mini layout which was in CM last year).

 

I am experimenting with a modular building system. The French buildings are in effect Frenchified versions of the British ones I have done. Cement rendering, adding shutters and pantile roof(lower pitch) and it moves 1000 miles south!

 

Underscaling does also happen in UK. Many of the r2p buildings from Bachmann and Hornby for OO, are undersized. I have been told the art deco station Bachman did is nearer to HO scale(possible even smaller), as is the art deco signal box and has been used as such on one Belgium layout.