shaunthesheep277 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 So if the track was proved unoccupied in platform 2 signals 1 & 3 would not need positions lighs Does this matter if say I choose the top line to platform 2 is no longer functional or simply used as a siding would they still need a position light Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 plus I never thought I would need a signal at position 3, I was thinking just a ground signal was needed Hi, If you don't want to spend the money on a main signal, you can just use a ground signal with an MI, the choice would be down to operations / the client, providing a main route out of the depot would speed up moves in the area, useful if it's a multiple unit depot. Signal Engineer, yes I had noticed the lack of trap points, but I forgot to put it on the diagram. I have signalled it to modern national standards and to get the full operational potential out of the layout, so things can be taken off if the era, region or budget is restrictive! Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 So if the track was proved unoccupied in platform 2 signals 1 & 3 would not need positions lighs Does this matter if say I choose the top line to platform 2 is no longer functional or simply used as a siding would they still need a position light Hi, The position lights are there to be able to run trains into an occupied line or carry out shunt moves, if you don't want to do that, you don't need them. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 I'm typing a little slow here to others 1,Modern era 2,The signal box is form a old layout I would assume this would be the correct placement for a signal box so is just "plonked" there 3,colour light signals 4, the station is bi-directional but there isn't room on the layout for points at the other end but imagine there is 5, I haven't decided yet it may jet be disused 6, Never thought of that plus it's a continuous layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Hi, The position lights are there to be able to run trains into an occupied line or carry out shunt moves, if you don't want to do that, you don't need them. Simon Short answer, yes I need them for shunting, Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 The layout is not based on anywhere particular Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Hi, Here's the layout amended to show the trap points: Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold imt Posted June 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 12, 2016 Hi, Yes, I can take you through the abbreviations, some are different to what is normally seen in model railway language. ...................... I hope this has helped, although it may have produced more questions than answers! Simon It helped immensely, and thank you for your time in making the long reply - I have filed it away to help me understand diagrams and posts in this forum. Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 If there is a need for trap points would one be used at the entrance/exit to the TMD? beat me to it, nevermind Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 12, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2016 5 - Is the Bay platform just used for passenger turnbacks where the train comes in then goes straight out again or is it used for stabling stock or parcels traffic? It possibly needs a trap point - see the Oxted plan in post #10 above. An interesting quirk of Oxted is that trains cannot terminate in the bay platform - they need to arrive in the up main platform, tip out the passengers then perform a shunt manoeuvrer to get into the bay platform from where they can depart back south in passenger service. I believe that this used to be the case back in the days of mechanical signalling and it is rather odd the BR kept the same arrangement upon electrification rather than reversing one of the crossovers to remove the need for a shunt move to use the bay. The reason I highlight this is from a modelling perspective it gives you the excuse for some interesting shunting manoeuvrers - rather than a straightforward in and out service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Just purchased some catch points of ebay a L/H and a R/H, I can assume the L/H goes in the bay platform and the R/H to the TMD? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 12, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2016 The Oxted layout could easily be tweaked to suit your desire for a depot. Note that Oxted lacks route indicators for shunt signals 301 (2 routes) 305 (2 routes) and 306 (2 routes on the real thing) - so you can quite legitimately get away with not having them on your model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 I may need to rearrange the TMD a little but the trap point can be installed and the signals too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 5 - Is the Bay platform just used for passenger turnbacks where the train comes in then goes straight out again or is it used for stabling stock or parcels traffic? It possibly needs a trap point - see the Oxted plan in post #10 above. Can I clarify what is meant by 'stabling stock' with regards the need for a trap point? On my own layout, which will be a terminus (truncated from a through station during the Beeching era), there will be a short bay platform not unlike the down bay at Oxted. I am envisaging that this is simply used for terminating DMUs which will then depart in the opposite direction a short time later. However, if a DMU were parked for a period of time where the driver had a rest break between the inbound and outbound services, would this be classed as 'stabled', insofar as there would be no railway staff on board in control of the train for a short period of time? If so, I assume that I may need to add a trap point to my own plans (which could be accommodated). Could I omit a trap point on the basis that it is a terminus and all lines would be subject to a 10mph speed restriction? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted June 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2016 Without going into the fine details of the routes, given your answers I would say Simon's solution is not far off what you would find in real life depending on the date when the layout was signalled and regional variations. I would question whether signal 3 should be a main signal of whether you could get away with a ground signal given that the next main signal will be in sight as soon as you come to the main line. This has been subject to much discussion for decades with variations even within regions. The trap point ahead of signal 3 needs to throw off to the right clear of the main line. For the suggestion of the stop board to work then it should be at least an engine length from the signal. If there is not conveniently space to fit in the trap, signal and stop board an alternative would be to put a trap on the lower siding, omit signal 3 and the stop board and put three ground signals in the sidings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted June 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2016 Can I clarify what is meant by 'stabling stock' with regards the need for a trap point? On my own layout, which will be a terminus (truncated from a through station during the Beeching era), there will be a short bay platform not unlike the down bay at Oxted. I am envisaging that this is simply used for terminating DMUs which will then depart in the opposite direction a short time later. However, if a DMU were parked for a period of time where the driver had a rest break between the inbound and outbound services, would this be classed as 'stabled', insofar as there would be no railway staff on board in control of the train for a short period of time? If so, I assume that I may need to add a trap point to my own plans (which could be accommodated). Could I omit a trap point on the basis that it is a terminus and all lines would be subject to a 10mph speed restriction? The solution would depend on what the Operations Manager for the region and the HMRI thought at the time of the layout/signalling being installed. If the station is on the level I have seen situations without trap points where trains are routinely left unattended. As a through station it may well have had a trap in a bay platform, especially if used for parcels traffic or if the rubbish truck was parked there, but the through platforms would not have been trapped except inherently by the normal lie of the points. I think it would have been most unlikely that any additional trapping would have been provided in your circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Without going into the fine details of the routes, given your answers I would say Simon's solution is not far off what you would find in real life depending on the date when the layout was signalled and regional variations. I would question whether signal 3 should be a main signal of whether you could get away with a ground signal given that the next main signal will be in sight as soon as you come to the main line. This has been subject to much discussion for decades with variations even within regions. The trap point ahead of signal 3 needs to throw off to the right clear of the main line. For the suggestion of the stop board to work then it should be at least an engine length from the signal. If there is not conveniently space to fit in the trap, signal and stop board an alternative would be to put a trap on the lower siding, omit signal 3 and the stop board and put three ground signals in the sidings. Hi, Yes, my way of doing it is a way, not necessarily the way to signal the layout, the old saying of 3 signalling engineerers can form 4 seperate opinions. Signal 3 would be an ops / budget decision, if the budget was tight, probably one ground signal would do, but if the next signals were along way out and ops didn't want to hold up the main line, then a main signal would be used. Signalling design is about finding a perfect balance between Safety, Operational Flexibility, Performance, Budget, Future Proofing and costumer needs. Of course, a perfect balance isn't always necessarily available, but some schemes to this better than others. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted June 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2016 Only four alternatives, Simon? Given an hour without anything else to do I could probably come up with at least that many on my own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 I've been looking at the Absolute Aspect signals as they are top quality but they are pricey, on the plus side because of your diagram Simon I could buy one a month (or two) since there's no rush it will soon look the part Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2016 One thing I do not like is the STOP board - its presence would result in anything going into the sidings stopping across the layout blocking any other moves, Signal Engineer has already suggested one solution - more expensive (in the real world but far better if there are lots of movements going in and out. An alternative I have seen used in the past is Shunter's Acceptance Switch together with detection on the hand point but that might not have been popular with all BR Regions but at least it avoids anything stopping before it is clear of the running line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 One thing I do not like is the STOP board - its presence would result in anything going into the sidings stopping across the layout blocking any other moves, Signal Engineer has already suggested one solution - more expensive (in the real world but far better if there are lots of movements going in and out. An alternative I have seen used in the past is Shunter's Acceptance Switch together with detection on the hand point but that might not have been popular with all BR Regions but at least it avoids anything stopping before it is clear of the running line. Hi Mike, I was assuming that the stop board would be located in such a position that moves stopped at it would not block the running lines, without a scale drawing, I couldn't show it Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 that's why the TMD is going to change Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 I'm going to change the entrance to accommodate the catch point and a class 66 with space to clear the main line Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2016 Hi Mike, I was assuming that the stop board would be located in such a position that moves stopped at it would not block the running lines, without a scale drawing, I couldn't show it Simon Ah, that makes more sense Simon although I'd still be wary about signing off a drawing like that (or putting it upstairs with a recommend to sign off) as Drivers have a nasty habit of not stopping where you think they'll stop at boards like that. The one at Swindon was something like 6 coach lengths from the end of signalled railway although according to what I saw the other week it now seems to have gone completely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunthesheep277 Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share Posted August 16, 2016 Hi guys it's been a while since I've posted anything at all, but just an update I've decided to remove the double slip point for a normal one, I don't know if this will change the signals (type and position) I haven't decided weather to leave the track down in the bay platform or remove it completely maybe something of interest disused track all full of weeds I don't thing they'll be a need for feathers I may be wrong All your reply's up to now has been outstanding so hopefully this time is no different Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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