Collett 60' Bow-End Suburban Coaches.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Comet Models list three variations of sides for Collett Bow-End Suburbans

 

W21 Third Non-gangwayed-Bow end C61/63 60' 1930

 

 

 

W22 Composite Non-g.wayed-Bow end E141 60' 1930

 

 

 

W23 Brake Third Non gangwayed Bow end D109 60' 1930

 

I think that something in the region of 40 of each were built and formed into various sets, although in later years WR sets in my area seemed to be a mixed bunch. They lasted up to about 1963/4.  

 

Were any of these allocated to the Birmingham area?  I have seen bow-end suburbans on various pictures but can't decide if they are 57' or 60'.

 

Thanks for any info you many be able to add.

 

 

[chrisf]

By good fortune I still had my spreadsheet open after asking another query.  Warning: this is not going to be a simple answer.

 

Initially, and this is an important word for things changed, there were some 4 coach sets formed D109-E141-E141-D109.  Eight of these were allocated to Birmingham, two to Chester and 11 to London.  In the fullness of time the sets were broken up and the stock redeployed.  The Birmingham sets nearly all became three coach formations in the early 1950s and those which did not have all thirds had them added.  In South Wales five coach sets instead of a mix of 4 coach sets and B sets became the norm from 1953.  London area sets were reformed from four to five coach after the abolition of first class in 1940 but this process took a while to complete.  The Chester sets passed to the London Midland Region after nationalisation and seem to have been disbanded before the coaches were returned to the WR.  The Railway Observer, often a fruitful source of gen, reported sightings of diffferent E141s at Preston in 1953 and Kings Lynn in 1957.  If ever there was an area where the careful study of photographs paid dividends it is this one as vehicles from disbanded sets turned up in some "funny" places.

 

The waters in which the C61 and C63 swim are shark infested.  Comet clearly chose to overlook the fact that the body profiles of these types differ significantly.  The C61s ran in 5 coach sets with D110 brake thirds, which differ from the D109s in having one fewer passenger compartment and a larger guard's van, and E142 composites which had the first class compartments in the middle instead of at one end.  These sets were allocated when new to Cardiff and Birmingham.  The C63s were narrower overall and especially at roof level, being a match for the D112 brake thirds.  Neither of these types were built for sets, being destined instead for what was called "general service".  This is not to say that they never were formed into sets.  Somehow I doubt that records exist of the formations of the reformed London and Cardiff sets but life does tend to be full of surprises so, gentle reader, if you know different do tell.  Bear in mind also that there was a pecking order for new stock.  London tended to be first, followed by Birmingham.  When these divisions received new Hawksworths and BR standards in the early to mid 50s older stock was either scrapped or dispersed - "unloaded into the country" as the RO so quaintly put it - but to every rule there is an exception!

 

If I were seeking to represent a set running in the West Midlands towards the end I would include one of those strange non-corridor composites that Swindon built for the LMR to GWR diagram E156 over 10 years after the initial batch was built.  Needless to say many of them did not stay there and the late Michael Mensing captured some on film.  The numbers ran from M16797W to M16876W and I can remember seeing at least one at Acton when I was a kid.

 

If you need some numbers we can do that by PM to avoid boring the pants off the rest of RMweb.

 

Chris

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thanks Chris, ever a fountain of knowledge when it comes to GW stock. I thought ex-LMS stock was difficult in this period before I added the GW into the equation.

 

I am looking initially in the late of the 1950s just as the DMUs were taking over, although I may drift back to the early 1950s as time goes on as most of my freight stock would fit that time and quite a few of my coach collection are in B&C or Crimson.

 

The layout is a joint line junction set in the Black Country with the ex-GW trains coming from Birmingham, Wolverhampton or Stourbridge/Worcester. From the photos of Michael Mensing, James Doubleday and others I have noticed a wide variety of formations in that period, including a lot of three coah trains with one brake in the middle.

 

As I develop ideas for my GW suburban set(s) I may well take up your offer of suitable numbers for the types available. Thanks again.

 

Eric

[chrisf]

Thanks for your kind words, Eric.

 

It is amazing how long coaches lasted in crimson or blood and custard.  You have a perfect opportunity for nice clean dmus alongside battered old coaches!

 

Chris

[TheSignalEngineer]

Birmingham suburban sets around the time the DMUs started coming in were a right old mixture. On the GW I've found a set consisting of a Mk1 in crimson, wide bodied GW brake in plain maroon and a narrow bodied composite in lined maroon. There's another picture at Snow Hill with a Flying Banana in B&C in the next platform to an ex-works Gloucester set. M16862W appears on a train at Acock's Green in 1961. Auto coaches varied from pre-WW1 70 footers to Hawksworths and most things between in the space of about 4 years.  It's beginning to look as if Rule 1 will not be needed.