For those who like old Motorcycles.

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

That's more my kind of thing too, but living on Fraggle Rock I get to see all sorts of erotica  exotica, ancient and modern.

 

Upper picture, interesting/nice though a bit early for my taste, but I do like the red one.

 

Lower picture, probably very clever, but WTF?

 

John

Edited August 4, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[rockershovel]

9 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Were those forks made by Metal Profiles? I've mostly worked on road bikes so it's not something that I am really familiar with. Some of the lightweights and autocycles had girder forks with a rubber band working in tension rather than compression and I've come across the strange rubber block rear suspension setup used on machines such as the London built Tandon, who did both road, trials and scrambles machines.

There was a whole cottage industry at one time, names like Antig, Hagon, Elstar, Dula making frames and forks for track racing. Most of them used simple rubber-band-in-tension forks of the MP type, varying in detail. Antig still produce them for the Pre 1975 class. 

 

Grass track bikes had (largely ineffectual) brakes in those days and BSA Bantam hubs were widely used... cheap, easy to procure, light and robust 

[alastairq]

12 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

That's more my kind of thing too, but living on Fraggle Rock I get to see all sorts of erotica  exotica, ancient and modern.

 

 

 

 

It would look good being ridden by an old fahrt wearing an Everoak and dispatch rider's gear....

[spikey]

Ref the Cyclemotor-equipped velocipede with the bin liner saddle cover, that's totally wrong.  Not authentic at all.  Not even slightly. The ones I remember were invariably graced by the owner's ex-Army beret ... 🙃

[MrWolf]

14 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Upper picture, interesting/nice though a bit early for my taste, but I do like the red one.

 

Lower picture, probably very clever, but WTF?

 

John

 

Probably goes like stink, but visually it looks like an unholy union between a Harley and a Dyson.

[New Haven Neil]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

Lower picture, probably very clever, but WTF?

 

John

 

It's one of these:

 

https://www.blessthisstuff.com/stuff/vehicles/motorcycles/crs-motorcycles/

 

...and yes, WTF!  There were two together, Italian visitors for TT.

 

Naughty steal of Britten's CR&S branding, due to some kind of a brief tie-up with them IIRC.

 

Talking of Britten,,,here's one now!  Jurby, 2012 MGP - wow it was fast.

 

 

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

Talking of Britten,,,here's one now!  Jurby, 2012 MGP - wow it was fast.

 

 

I'm one of the "The Britten V1000 is the greatest motorcycle ever built" club.  So much clever engineering, brilliantly executed in one machine.  Gibbo675, formerly of RMWeb (now banned...) is or was building a replica.

[MrWolf]

The Britten V1000 certainly has some serious aircraft grade engineering about it, none of the drip fed innovation that we're used to. Progress photos of a proper shed built replica would be fascinating to see. Also I wondered what had happened to Gibbo, he was a regular contributor to several threads I followed.

[steve1]

Howden Co-op car park yesterday. (OK, it isn’t old and possibly not even a motorcycle, strictly speaking…)

 

steve

 

 

[rockershovel]

Surely the earliest motorcycles were fore-cars?

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, steve1 said:

Howden Co-op car park yesterday. (OK, it isn’t old and possibly not even a motorcycle, strictly speaking…)

 

steve

 

 

I must confess to a bit of a hankering after one of those...

 

John

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

Surely the earliest motorcycles were fore-cars?

 

Pretty much if you're looking at commercial products, though they were attempting to build a car initially. With the Humber forecar and the Benz trike, the engine is at the rear, away from the passengers, who are then exposed to everything the road can throw at them.

The first official production bike comes in around a decade later in 1894 with the Hildebrand and Wolfmuller, that used the frame to support the crankshaft and connecting rods, driving the rear wheel direct like a railway locomotive.

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

4 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

Pretty much if you're looking at commercial products, though they were attempting to build a car initially. With the Humber forecar and the Benz trike, the engine is at the rear, away from the passengers, who are then exposed to everything the road can throw at them.

The first official production bike comes in around a decade later in 1894 with the Hildebrand and Wolfmuller, that used the frame to support the crankshaft and connecting rods, driving the rear wheel direct like a railway locomotive.

 

 

 

I've never understood how anyone rode a machine like that 

  

I notice he doesn't show how it is started or stopped..

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by rockershovel

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I've never understood how anyone rode a machine like that 

I feel that way about anything with two wheels and a hand gear-change.🥸

[rockershovel]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

I feel that way about anything with two wheels and a hand gear-change.🥸

Well this doesn't appear to have a hand gear change, or any other type either 

 

[rockershovel]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

I feel that way about anything with two wheels and a hand gear-change.🥸

I've ridden hand-change British bikes, and Harleys and Indians with hand shift. It's a learned skill....

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Well this doesn't appear to have a hand gear change, or any other type either 

 

What a fabulous contraption....😃 

 

I wonder if there have been any other 5-cylinder bikes? 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[spikey]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I've ridden hand-change British bikes, and Harleys and Indians with hand shift. It's a learned skill....

 

That's one thing I've never really got clear.  What do you do with which hand, and in what order?

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I've never understood how anyone rode a machine like that 

  

I notice he doesn't show how it is started or stopped..

 

 

I've never seen one in the flesh, let alone ridden one, but I do have first hand knowledge of the type of engine that would be fitted. It's what is known as a hit and miss engine. At tickover and at whatever speed the hand throttle is set, engine speed is governed so that the rod which opens the ignition contacts in the cylinder head (there's no sparking plug in the conventional sense) misses the latch which trips the contacts, the engine stops firing until the momentum of the flywheel, in this case the rear road wheel slows and the ignition latch re-engages. The inlet valve is probably automatic and only opened by the induction stroke, the exhaust operated by a pushrod with a built in valve lifter or a separate decompression valve.

To start the bike, given that a hit and miss engine is very low compression, you would set air and fuel levers, (no twist throttle) set ignition to retard, lift the decompression and walk or paddle the bike along until it fires. 

Stopping is a little trickier, although you have a brake of sorts, decrease the throttle, brake and pull in the decompressor, or there may also be a way to interrupt the ignition latch, the momentum allows you to pull away again. Stopping completely would mean stopping the engine, but after the initial start you would just paddle forward with a hot engine and drop the decompressor.

 

Something like that, or I just rode into the side of a theoretical tramcar...

 

Those Megola bikes with the aero engine in the front wheel must have had some kind of clutch, I don't know for sure, but I did read that a number of them were used as pace machines for cycle velodrome racing.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, spikey said:

 

That's one thing I've never really got clear.  What do you do with which hand, and in what order?

... that's all she wrote.......

 

Depends on the set-up. British handshift bikes were normally fitted with a right-hand throttle, left-hand clutch and right-hand shift lever. You blip the throttle, pull in the clutch, reach down and change gear. For a fast change UP, momentarily ease the throttle, reach across the tank and ease into the next gear without disengaging the clutch. 

 

Harleys (mostly) had a right-hand throttle, left-foot clutch and left hand gear shift lever. Blip the throttle, heel down on the clutch rocker pedal, change gear and depress the front of the pedal to engage the clutch ("toe to go"). Ease the throttle and repeat the process to change down. Servicar trikes (and some choppers and flat-track bikes) have a clutch pedal like a car. 

 

Indians had various combinations of right or left hand throttle, right or left hand shift levers (sometimes by the tank, sometimes by the saddle - the notorious "crotch shift"). Clutch would be a left foot pedal. Press down on the front of the clutch rocker (opposite to Harley), blip throttle and haul on the lever until the graunching noises stop; heel down and off you go! 

 

Of the various systems I find the Harley one easiest to ride, with the major proviso that uphill starts require practice, especially if the bike is fitted with the usual useless front brake. Also, the rear limb of the rocker pedal jabs you in the ankle bone while riding. British type handshifters are easier in this respect. 

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

I've never seen one in the flesh, let alone ridden one, but I do have first hand knowledge of the type of engine that would be fitted. It's what is known as a hit and miss engine. At tickover and at whatever speed the hand throttle is set, engine speed is governed so that the rod which opens the ignition contacts in the cylinder head (there's no sparking plug in the conventional sense) misses the latch which trips the contacts, the engine stops firing until the momentum of the flywheel, in this case the rear road wheel slows and the ignition latch re-engages. The inlet valve is probably automatic and only opened by the induction stroke, the exhaust operated by a pushrod with a built in valve lifter or a separate decompression valve.

To start the bike, given that a hit and miss engine is very low compression, you would set air and fuel levers, (no twist throttle) set ignition to retard, lift the decompression and walk or paddle the bike along until it fires. 

Stopping is a little trickier, although you have a brake of sorts, decrease the throttle, brake and pull in the decompressor, or there may also be a way to interrupt the ignition latch, the momentum allows you to pull away again. Stopping completely would mean stopping the engine, but after the initial start you would just paddle forward with a hot engine and drop the decompressor.

 

Something like that, or I just rode into the side of a theoretical tramcar...

 

Those Megola bikes with the aero engine in the front wheel must have had some kind of clutch, I don't know for sure, but I did read that a number of them were used as pace machines for cycle velodrome racing.

Sounds rather like riding those clutchless lightweights like the Baby Triumph.... stop on the decompressor, then just paddle away till the engine starts. 

[MrWolf]

The baby Triumph is an interesting little beast isn't it? Especially those fitted with a barrel carburettor and separate levers for air and fuel. I found the best way to slow down, given the band brake rear and spoon brake front (like a penny farthing!) was to jam your boot heel against the external flywheel as well as hauling on the brakes.

I quite like the foot clutch arrangement on Harley knuckleheads and panheads it's a very relaxed setup for the kind of roads in its homeland.

One American bike I did enjoy riding was a 1914 pedal start v twin 1000cc Yale. The gear lever stuck up from the transmission like something out of a Victorian signal box, complete with trigger.

Pull the lever back with the bike on the stand, pedal furiously and start it, then squeeze the trigger, move the lever into the middle notch of the gate, this disengaged the clutch and gave neutral. Off the stand, set the throttle and pull the lever again, clutch opens, engages first and as you release the lever into the gate, up comes the clutch and the bike lopes forward like a Great Dane on a beach. Get up to about twenty and it's lever all the way forward and into top. Even the brake sort of worked!

[New Haven Neil]

On 04/08/2022 at 21:07, MrWolf said:

The Britten V1000 certainly has some serious aircraft grade engineering about it, none of the drip fed innovation that we're used to. Progress photos of a proper shed built replica would be fascinating to see. Also I wondered what had happened to Gibbo, he was a regular contributor to several threads I followed.

 

I helped lift a Britten out of the van in Port St Mary, the year they raced here - JB took it down for a little get-together - we had been tipped off!  It was about half the weight you expected it to be, simply superb detailing, it was fantastic.  John signed a poster for me which was framed in our hallway for many years, but the sig was in non-light fast felt pen, and it has almost faded into invisibility so its kept in the dark now.  It's also signed by Nick Jeffries who rode one f the bikes that year.  I have the genuine Britten logo'd denim jacket too, that I also got that night, don't often wear that either, maybe one day each MGP week.

[MrWolf]

That..... Is cool.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

Harleys of that 30s/ 40s /50s period are just better visualised and developed than Indians. The MoCo realised early on that there was no worthwhile return on sub-600cc twins and abandoned the singles for the same reason. They developed the 750cc middleweight twin and just kept developing it; the tank shifter is easier to use than the Indian long, ungated lever, they had a constant-mesh gearbox (although Indian's gear driven primary and unit construction was superior). 

 

Indian wasted a lot of money on a lightweight parallel twin which was a complete failure, with obvious weaknesses; Harley built the K Model, which would become the Sportster and XR. 

 

Indian had the 750cc transverse v-twin which had a lot of potential, but had the cost of a Big Twin. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by rockershovel