Dapol 4mm Cattle Wagon

[formercw]

Can anyone give me a clue as to how to remove the body from Dapol's cattle wagon? I'd like to put some cattle in it, and though they'll just about fit through the top gaps that makes it awkward to arrange and fix them in place.

There are no obvious screws or clips, so I guess it's a case of knowing where to apply a small blade to prise the top from the chassis.

TIA

David H

[lofty1966]

The chassis is glued in and from my attempts to separate the two results in a broken model.

[davetheroad]

The chassis is glued in and from my attempts to separate the two results in a broken model.

 

That's interesting to know as I have just bought some unpainted ones!

 

edit - just got one out of the box. I popped the wheels of and had a good look. The body only contacts the chassis at the ends so I used a flat screwdriver and applies gentle and increasing pressure right at the end. There was a 'crack' and the corner came free. Repeated this for the other corners and I now have a separated body!. there was no damage as well.

 

There are 4 connecting studs on the body which mate with sockets on the chassis. These have been glued so I will have to clean them up to get the body back on.

 

If they are of a GWR prototype there should be a horizontal metal bar in the top openings at door level. historically this would prevent your cattle arranging an escape!

 

There is no floor either so a scratch built one needs adding to the chassis for your animals to stand on.

 

May I add another couple of questions?

 

What colour should the inside be?

 

I have an early BR layout. Would they have been left GWR grey or repainted bauxite, or painting my unpainted ones bauxite be valid.

[Dunsignalling]

Some are fixed (much) more strongly than others. If in doubt, buy a spare chassis* and drill the fixings out from underneath.

 

If you are lucky the original chassis can be re-used but it's less than a 50/50 chance in my experience.

 

You can work out the locations from the position of the ribs inside the ends. It will considerably improve the look of the reassembled wagon if you remove these, which are not prototypical.

 

John.

 

* Edit: Obtainable from Hatton's, as are unpainted body shells for most of the range. 

[Brinkly]

May I add another couple of questions?

 

What colour should the inside be?

 

I have an early BR layout. Would they have been left GWR grey or repainted bauxite, or painting my unpainted ones bauxite be valid.

Hi Dave,

 

The interior would have been unpainted wood, but would have been filthy! Cattle tend to lick things, so bare wood was best!

 

In earlier times, the wagons would have had large amounts of lime wash to keep down the risk of infection, but I think this practice ended before WW2.

 

With regard to external colour, really that is the $100 question. By 1955 a lot of older (grouping era) stock had been repainted, but naturally not everything was. Personally, I would say, if you are modelling between 1948-1953 it would have been more than likely to see older stock still in pre-BR colours, however, by 1955 more stock would have been going in for repairs, so it is probably that they would have been painted into Bauxite.

 

So options:

- Keep in original GWR livery.

- Keep in GWR grey colour, but remove the G&W and instead put a W in front of the the wagons number.

- Repaint into Bauxite, reasonably clean, representing a early repaint for your period.

- Repaint into Bauxite, quite weathered, representing a heavily used wagon.

 

That is my advice at any rate. Sorry it isn't a hard and fast answer, but with regard to wagon liveries in this period, there isn't a set of clear rules!

 

Don't forget that cattle wagons were also pressed into service for other goods, such as broccoli, new potatoes and ale wagons.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

 

(Also is it worth mentioning that the body is 4mm too long.)

[davetheroad]

Hi Dave,

 

The interior would have been unpainted wood, but would have been filthy! Cattle tend to lick things, so bare wood was best!

 

In earlier times, the wagons would have had large amounts of lime wash to keep down the risk of infection, but I think this practice ended before WW2.

 

With regard to external colour, really that is the $100 question. By 1955 a lot of older (grouping era) stock had been repainted, but naturally not everything was. Personally, I would say, if you are modelling between 1948-1953 it would have been more than likely to see older stock still in pre-BR colours, however, by 1955 more stock would have been going in for repairs, so it is probably that they would have been painted into Bauxite.

 

So options:

- Keep in original GWR livery.

- Keep in GWR grey colour, but remove the G&W and instead put a W in front of the the wagons number.

- Repaint into Bauxite, reasonably clean, representing a early repaint for your period.

- Repaint into Bauxite, quite weathered, representing a heavily used wagon.

 

That is my advice at any rate. Sorry it isn't a hard and fast answer, but with regard to wagon liveries in this period, there isn't a set of clear rules!

 

Don't forget that cattle wagons were also pressed into service for other goods, such as broccoli, new potatoes and ale wagons.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

 

(Also is it worth mentioning that the body is 4mm too long.)

 

Thanks, I have 5 painted examples and 5 unpainted. I will keep the painted in grey with 'W' renumbering and paint the rest bauxite. As for the wagon being 4mm too long, I model for effect so not bothered at all!.

[Brinkly]

Thanks, I have 5 painted examples and 5 unpainted. I will keep the painted in grey with 'W' renumbering and paint the rest bauxite. As for the wagon being 4mm too long, I model for effect so not bothered at all!.

That is the most important factor - your satisfaction with a model.

 

You could even paint in bare wood planks on the GWR liveried models, to represent planks repaired whilst in service.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[lofty1966]

I bought some unpainted versions....they scrub up nicely with some extra details.

http://s259.photobucket.com/user/lofty1966/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160327_212928_zpsmzfdf0hg.jpg.html?filters[user]=62482376&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

[formercw]

Many thanks - I'll have a gingerly try with a blade and report back. As to the bars, yes I noticed as I looked through Geoff Kent's volumes on the 4mm Wagon that most cattle wagons had at least one if not more bars to stop the critters escaping.

David H

[Il Grifone]

This is basically the old Dublo model which was supposedly a BR design*, but, as previously stated, rather over length (it shared an underframe with their grain wagon which is too short). The BR design was based on the GWR one, but has a shallower roof arc (and differences in the gaps in the lower boards). AFAIK all were fitted and should be in BR bauxite livery. There should be a rail across the openings in the sides and a movable partition to divide the space available (charged according to size). They are really only suitable for the early/mid fifties as the cattle traffic was lost to the roads (possibly deliberately?). I can remember lines of wagons stored out of use at Tavistock Junction marshalling yard.

 

* The Airfix/Dapol kit is a slightly different design.

 

The lime wash was banned in the mid twenties.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br+standard+cattle+wagon&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy09mog87OAhUlD8AKHZbNC5MQsAQIHQ

 

Cattle wagons were made 'common user' in the twenties (1927 IIRC), but the GWR, obviously considering the designs of the lesser railways to be inferior, withdrew their wagons from the pool later the same year. They were then fitted with the GWR 'not common user' plate.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br+standard+cattle+wagon&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy09mog87OAhUlD8AKHZbNC5MQsAQIHQ#tbm=isch&q=gwr+cattle+wagon

[formercw]

They are really only suitable for the early/mid fifties as the cattle traffic was lost to the roads (possibly deliberately?). 

 

* The Airfix/Dapol kit is a slightly different design.

 

 

 

Suits the period well: I'm basically doing a shunting puzzle with the theme a farm move.

I do have an old unmade Airfix kit too but in my naive fashion thought bashing a RTR version would be quicker. Oh how we laughed ...

[formercw]

Snapped the body off in the end - judicious use of solvent at the four pillars will fix it once a false floor has been fitted with cattle in place. If I can work out how to reduce image size I'll post some images of the fixing points for future reference.

David H

[Dunsignalling]

Many thanks - I'll have a gingerly try with a blade and report back. As to the bars, yes I noticed as I looked through Geoff Kent's volumes on the 4mm Wagon that most cattle wagons had at least one if not more bars to stop the critters escaping.

David H

Not so much escaping as sticking their heads out to be knocked off by lineside structures or trains coming the other way.

 

John

[Fat Controller]

This is basically the old Dublo model which was supposedly a BR design*, but, as previously stated, rather over length (it shared an underframe with their grain wagon which is too short). The BR design was based on the GWR one, but has a shallower roof arc (and differences in the gaps in the lower boards). AFAIK all were fitted and should be in BR bauxite livery. There should be a rail across the openings in the sides and a movable partition to divide the space available (charged according to size). They are really only suitable for the early/mid fifties as the cattle traffic was lost to the roads (possibly deliberately?). I can remember lines of wagons stored out of use at Tavistock Junction marshalling yard.

 

* The Airfix/Dapol kit is a slightly different design.

 

The lime wash was banned in the mid twenties.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br+standard+cattle+wagon&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy09mog87OAhUlD8AKHZbNC5MQsAQIHQ

 

Cattle wagons were made 'common user' in the twenties (1927 IIRC), but the GWR, obviously considering the designs of the lesser railways to be inferior, withdrew their wagons from the pool later the same year. They were then fitted with the GWR 'not common user' plate.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br+standard+cattle+wagon&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy09mog87OAhUlD8AKHZbNC5MQsAQIHQ#tbm=isch&q=gwr+cattle+wagon

The last cattle traffic in the UK was as late as the early/mid 1970s, from Holyhead to Manchester. There is a photo in the most recent 'Moving The Goods' instalment (which is dedicated to livestock transport) of a TOPS-numbered 08 shunter at Holyhead with a rake of cattle wagons. Prior to that, one of the last bastions had been the Scottish Highlands and Islands, Kyle of Lochalsh being one point of origin, with traffic coming originally from Skye.

[Il Grifone]

The last cattle traffic in the UK was as late as the early/mid 1970s, from Holyhead to Manchester. There is a photo in the most recent 'Moving The Goods' instalment (which is dedicated to livestock transport) of a TOPS-numbered 08 shunter at Holyhead with a rake of cattle wagons. Prior to that, one of the last bastions had been the Scottish Highlands and Islands, Kyle of Lochalsh being one point of origin, with traffic coming originally from Skye.

 

Undoubtedly the case, but most of the traffic had gone long before. Redundant wagons were being reallocated to other uses in the thirties (Branded 'ALE' for example). Road transport has the 'door to door' advantage and was heavily promoted in the fifties.

 

(I won't go into this any further to avoid straying into the forbidden zone of politics!)

[BWsTrains]

On 19/08/2016 at 18:27, Dunsignalling said:

Some are fixed (much) more strongly than others. If in doubt, buy a spare chassis* and drill the fixings out from underneath.

 

If you are lucky the original chassis can be re-used but it's less than a 50/50 chance in my experience.

 

You can work out the locations from the position of the ribs inside the ends.........

 

What's been described so far sounded less than ideal so I took some careful measurements and had my own try. These are my results that follow up drilling out the wagon stud joins:-

 

Removing the Body of Dapol Wagons – GWR 1923-47 e.g. Fruit Mex 4F-015-001, Cattle Wagon GWR 13828 4F-020-014

 

Body stud locations are 9.5mm in from Body sides and 3mm from ends. Note: Chassis width varies by model so precise location is measured from Wagon side

Drill out with 2mm bit (5/64in) until completely through the softer black chassis plastic and into the white wagon plastic. This is critical to weaken the joints which, as others have noted, are very firmly glued down.

 

 

With the entire centre of the joined section removed I had 100% success in easily snapping the joins by inserting a screwdriver into the side and levering. Looking at the join I could see why any lesser weakening might well cause breakage elsewhere.

 

 

Next I used my regular repair trick for childrens' plastic toys etc, pin and glue. I drilled out 1.2mm holes in the centre of each pillar (not being fussed about retaining them as I don't intend to look that closely inside) and glued in 1mm * 12mm nails using a standard PU adhesive.

 

 

further glue on the nail head in the 2mm hole in the chassis is sufficient to hold everything together once it sets.

[lofty1966]

I have had a play with a damaged Dapol body by cutting out the sides , shortening the roof and grafting on Coopercraft sides and chassis and making it into an Ale Van.

Also had to modify the underframes to levered brake rather than handles.

Will take some pix when I can walk (back has given out yet again) grrrrr

[lofty1966]

Whilst being semi incapacitated yesterday ,I managed to crack on with another two Ale Wagon conversions.

Painted one is still not yet finished.

Roof and some details still to be done.

Wheels are just a set of 'painting'ones and will be replaced

[Dunsignalling]

What's been described so far sounded less than ideal so I took some careful measurements and had my own try. These are my results that follow up drilling out the wagon stud joins:-

 

Removing the Body of Dapol Wagons – GWR 1923-47 e.g. Fruit Mex 4F-015-001, Cattle Wagon GWR 13828 4F-020-014

 

Body stud locations are 9.5mm in from Body sides and 3mm from ends. Note: Chassis width varies by model so precise location is measured from Wagon side

Drill out with 2mm bit (5/64in) until completely through the softer black chassis plastic and into the white wagon plastic. This is critical to weaken the joints which, as others have noted, are very firmly glued down.

 

Dapol1.jpg

 

With the entire centre of the joined section removed I had 100% success in easily snapping the joins by inserting a screwdriver into the side and levering. Looking at the join I could see why any lesser weakening might well cause breakage elsewhere.

 

Dapol2.jpg

 

Next I used my regular repair trick for childrens' plastic toys etc, pin and glue. I drilled out 1.2mm holes in the centre of each pillar (not being fussed about retaining them as I don't intend to look that closely inside) and glued in 1mm * 12mm nails using a standard PU adhesive.

 

Dapol3.jpg

 

further glue on the nail head in the 2mm hole in the chassis is sufficient to hold everything together once it sets.

A word to the wise for anyone contemplating this sort of conversion who hasn't already got the donor wagons.

 

Unpainted bodies and 11' wb underframes are available separately as spare parts which avoids the hazards of dismantling.

 

Both in stock at Hatton's last time I looked.

 

John

[lofty1966]

I bought the last 5 in stock a couple of weeks back <sorry>

Hopefully they have got some more !