Charrington's Coal hoppers

[Adam]

A question about wagon liveries. It's well known that Charringtons fuels had branded hoppers and, when painted grey, these had black writing on red panels. Now I'm a bit confused about some repaints of vehicles carried out in conjunction with the opening of of coal concentration depots. The wagon colour seems to have been bauxite or brown, but the panels, running the full length of the wagon were a light colour with the lettering a darker contrasting colour: NOT black. The pictures linked to below show this but I was wondering, what were the colours? Red lettering seems possible, but on a grey back ground? Or yellow?

 

http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/images/1200px/AAX122.jpg

 

Note that the vehicle below is an LNER-built example, number E304700, dated 16 November 1963.

 

http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/images/1200px/AAX534.jpg

 

There's another example, in service c.1968 shown on p. 41 of Malcom Castledine's Industrial Railways in Northumbria and County Durham in the latter days of Steam (Booklaw, 2004). Black and white, of course...

 

Thoughts?

 

Adam

Edited November 9, 2016 by Adam

[Fat Controller]

I wonder if the panels were light grey, with the lettering in body colour?

[Adam]

I wonder if the panels were light grey, with the lettering in body colour?

Plausible. Red on grey or yellow struck me as feasible too. Photographic or eye witness evidence required before I (re)commit to paint though.

 

Adam

Edited November 9, 2016 by Adam

[Fat Controller]

Plausible. Red on grey or yellow struck me as feasible too. Photographic or eye witness evidence required though.

 

Adam

Do Charringtons still exist? A quick Google says they are now part of CPL, who do thinks like prepacked coal and briquettes, as well as logs and wood pellets. It might be worth dropping them a mail to see if they've anything in an archive somewhere:-

http://coalproducts.co.uk/history-of-cpl

Good Luck.

[Mark Saunders]

It makes me wonder where Mainline got the information when they produced their model in the early 1980's!

 

Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

It makes me wonder where Mainline got the information when they produced their model in the early 1980's!

 

Mark Saunders

The one they did was a grey-bodied one, wasn't it, Mark?

[Adam]

It makes me wonder where Mainline got the information when they produced their model in the early 1980's!

Mark Saunders

 

Thanks both. I think the grey - with the red panel - is probably accurate (I'm reasonably sure I've seen a Larkin picture with that as a livery description). Here's the one Charrington's wagon in Paul Bartlett's collections. this demonstrates that the lettering is correct at least:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/h3d79ba9a#h3d79ba9a

 

Wrenn produced one without the red panel - I've no idea whether that is correct or a production cost saving:

 

http://wrennmodelrailways.com/wrenn-rolling-stock/freight-and-rolling-stock/grain-hopper-wagons.html

 

Adam

Edited November 9, 2016 by Adam

[Fat Controller]

Well, I think the grey - with the red panel - is probably accurate (I'm reasonably sure I've seen a Larkin picture with that as a livery description). Here's the one Charrington's wagon in Paul Bartlett's collections. this demonstrates that the lettering is correct at least:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/h3d79ba9a#h3d79ba9a

Wrenn produced one without the red panel:

 

http://wrennmodelrailways.com/wrenn-rolling-stock/freight-and-rolling-stock/grain-hopper-wagons.html

 

Adam

The ones I remember at Sandy Jct yard were definitely grey bodies with a red panel for the lettering; I was a bit too young to have a camera at the time, unfortunately. They'd have been loaded at Cynheidre; other South Wales sources of anthracite would have included Coedbach, Garnant and possibly Onlwynn. The other areas where they might have turned up were around the various 'smokeless fuel' plants in South Wales and Derbyshire.

[Adam]

The ones I remember at Sandy Jct yard were definitely grey bodies with a red panel for the lettering; I was a bit too young to have a camera at the time, unfortunately. They'd have been loaded at Cynheidre; other South Wales sources of anthracite would have included Coedbach, Garnant and possibly Onlwynn. The other areas where they might have turned up were around the various 'smokeless fuel' plants in South Wales and Derbyshire.

 

Great, thanks Brian. That's grist to the mill - and useful to have some locations the search for possible evidence.

 

Adam

[Porcy Mane]

I have seen colour pictures of the 21 ton hoppers but I can't remember where. Something in the back of my mind says it was and article about the brewing side of the Charrington family. There was also another style of Charringtons livery used from early 1962 on the fleet of disk braked hoppers initially used between Mansfield and Palace Gates.

 

You have a PM.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Fat Controller]

I have seen colour pictures of the 21 ton hoppers but I can't remember where. Something in the back of my mind says it was and article about the brewing side of the Charrington family. There was also another style of Charringtons livery used from early 1962 on the fleet of disk braked hoppers initially used between Mansfield and Palace Gates.

 

You have a PM.

The disc-braked hoppers are presumably the 24.5t ones that later came down to Kent for the workings to Richborough power station that worked as 'proof of concept' for merry-go-round.

[Porcy Mane]

The disc-braked hoppers are presumably the 24.5t ones that later came down to Kent.

 No.

 

21 ton batch converted with a batch of 16 tonners. I can't remember the exact numbers without checking references. Later a good number of the 21 t hoppers went into the running of fully fitted Class 7* freights from South Yorks and Notts coalfields to supply the new Coal concentration depots in and around London.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have a distinct recollection of a red panel, a sort of orangey tomato soup colour which might well have faded to give the odd result in the OP's photos.

 

I think that one of the CCDs on the Chessington Branch was Charrington's so the Hull MRS crowd should know.

[Adam]

The disc-braked hoppers are presumably the 24.5t ones that later came down to Kent for the workings to Richborough power station that worked as 'proof of concept' for merry-go-round.

 

Not sure - this from Bob Wallace of the BR Wagon Research group:

 

re the 21T Coal Hoppers that carried Charringtons livery, just found this information.

 

The advertising contract between BR and Charrington covered the livery being applied to 63 fully fitted, disc-braked Coal hoppers. No date

for the application but the contract finished in early 1965. The wagons were required to be sent to Temple Mills Works for repainting

in a circular dated 5/4/1965.

 

Porcy has just sent me an image via PM - they're definitely 21 tonners. Clearly the repaints were only for these wagons - the Paul Bartlett image linked in the OP shows an unfitted wagon at a later date.

 

 

Adam

Edited November 9, 2016 by Adam

[Fat Controller]

Not sure - this from Bob Wallace of the BR Wagon Research group: re the 21T Coal Hoppers that carried Charringtons livery, just found

this information.

The advertising contract between BR and Charrington covered the livery

being applied to 63 fully fitted, disc-braked Coal hoppers. No date

for the application but the contract finished in early 1965. The

wagons were required to be sent to Temple Mills Works for repainting

in a circular dated 5/4/1965.

Porcy has just sent me an image via PM - they're definitely 21 tonners.

 

Adam

I've never heard of disc brakes on 21t hoppers before; only on their big brothers, and on the Covhops. 

[Adam]

I have a distinct recollection of a red panel, a sort of orangey tomato soup colour which might well have faded to give the odd result in the OP's photos.

 

I think that one of the CCDs on the Chessington Branch was Charrington's so the Hull MRS crowd should know.

 

As alluded to above - and his is what is shown in the Paul Bartlett image - but it's the earlier livery, clearly on newly repainted wagons in the HMRS pictures over brown that I want to know about.

 

Adam

[Porcy Mane]

I've never heard of disc brakes on 21t hoppers before; only on their big brothers, and on the Covhops. 

 

There was quite a lot written about their development in the contemporary railway press in the early to mid 1960's' Mr Beeching promoting them as a way to speed up mainline traffics. In an indirect way they were responsible for Q6 & J27 working for so long in the North east. The diesels that were initially earmarked for allocation to NE sheds to eradicate steam went to operate the faster freights of the ECML over the Southern sections.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Mark Saunders]

There was a number of 21 ton hoppers with Disk Brakes and I have seen an official of one in Charrington's livery but not sure where!

 

Mark Saunders

[hmrspaul]

The ones I remember at Sandy Jct yard were definitely grey bodies with a red panel for the lettering; I was a bit too young to have a camera at the time, unfortunately. They'd have been loaded at Cynheidre; other South Wales sources of anthracite would have included Coedbach, Garnant and possibly Onlwynn. The other areas where they might have turned up were around the various 'smokeless fuel' plants in South Wales and Derbyshire.

 

 

That is a correct description for B422611K. The lettering was black on a strange red - a sort of darkish pinky red (not Gulf red, redder and less brown than that) although rather worn by 1968. Peter Mathews had some photos of these in the mid 1960s magazines.

 

Paul

[Adam]

And here, I think, is an answer:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5790671805/sizes/l

 

Note the hopper (LNER dia. 100) in the back right hand corner. The two tone finish is clear as is the boxed lettering on the brown lower half replete with figure 5 in the square box to the right of it. If you squint, the middle letters of the Charringtons brand are just about visible in, I reckon, red.

 

Adam

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have seen colour pictures of the 21 ton hoppers but I can't remember where. Something in the back of my mind says it was and article about the brewing side of the Charrington family. There was also another style of Charringtons livery used from early 1962 on the fleet of disk braked hoppers initially used between Mansfield and Palace Gates...

David Percival reckons the Charringtons mechanised depot opened in 1958, supplied by a fleet 21T hoppers carrying Charringtons branding, running between Mansfield and Palace Gates. In my teens in the 1960s, these Charringtons 21T hoppers were - much battered and filthy - still in evidence, and there were also red/bauxite (also very filthy) 21T hoppers branded 'HOUSE COAL CONCENTRATION' intermixed with them in my recollection. Any date for the 'HOUSE COAL CONCENTRATION' branding start? (I think this came in 62/63.)

[Fat Controller]

David Percival reckons the Charringtons mechanised depot opened in 1958, supplied by a fleet 21T hoppers carrying Charringtons branding, running between Mansfield and Palace Gates. In my teens in the 1960s, these Charringtons 21T hoppers were - much battered and filthy - still in evidence, and there were also red/bauxite (also very filthy) 21T hoppers branded 'HOUSE COAL CONCENTRATION' intermixed with them in my recollection. Any date for the 'HOUSE COAL CONCENTRATION' branding start? (I think this came in 62/63.)

I'd agree with you about the start time for the HCC branding; they were to be seen alongside the Charringtons hoppers at Sandy Junction yard. I remember that dad's firm modified the screens at some of the collieries and washeries that loaded them in west Wales; these included Abernant, Garnant and Onllwyn. The clearances had to be modified, as the bottom of the screens were far too low to allow 21t hoppers under them. Somewhere, I've seen an aerial photo of Burry Port docks and yard with lots of these wagons in evidence. When I remember where it is, I'll post here.

[jonhall]

Chessington opened in '63

 

 

[AberdeenBill]

And here, I think, is an answer:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5790671805/sizes/l

 

Note the hopper (LNER dia. 100) in the back right hand corner. The two tone finish is clear as is the boxed lettering on the brown lower half replete with figure 5 in the square box to the right of it. If you squint, the middle letters of the Charringtons brand are just about visible in, I reckon, red.

 

Adam

 

Nice shot.   What does the 'boxed 5' mean?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[Adam]

Nice shot.   What does the 'boxed 5' mean?

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

Ah, I was hoping you wouldn't ask that. The explanation (as assembled by the good folks who populate the BR Wagon Research Yahoo group) is that the number was part of a still-born system to categorise wagons according to their maximum service speed. The quickest way to explain this comes via the following appeared in LMR WON [Wagon Operating Notice] in September 1963 (information from Mike Hollick). I have highlighted the appropriate bit.

 

NOTICE TO STAFF.

 

Limited speed of all four-wheeled vehicles of 10 feet wheelbase or less, and reduced maximum speed of Class 4 trains.

Until further notice all four-wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase of 10 feet or less are subject,to a speed restriction of 50 m.p.h. ,

If it is necessary for any such vehicle to be conveyed on a Class 1, 2 or 3 train, the Guard must advise the Driver and instruct him not to exceed 50 m.p.h.

Class 4 or 4+ trains must not exceed 50 m.p.h. at any point unless indicated in the timetable by a "club" symbol, in which case a maximum speed of 55 m.p.h, (Class 4) or 60 m.p.h. (Class 4+) will be permissible. Should it be necessary for a train so indicated to

carry a four-wheeled vehicle with a wheelbase of 10 feet or less the Guard must instruct the Driver not to exceed 50 m.p.h.

Painting of Freight Stock and Non-bogie Coaching Stock.

 

It is the future intention that all freight stock and non-bogie coaching stock will be marked to Indicate the maximum speed at which it may run. It may have been observed that a number of vehicles have already appeared in service bearing a white numeral in a white lined square, and without the symbol "XP" where applicable.

Full instructions on this subject will be published in due course. In the meantime it should be noted that the Numerals "1" "2" or "3" are equivalent to "XP" marking.

(21-9-63)

 

The numbers seem to have been abandoned relatively early, but the white boxes were applied for years afterwards, well into the 1980s when it can only have become paintshop habit:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/oyster/h10551809#h10551809

 

Adam

 

PS - there was a later instruction which shows that paintshops had been rather confused by all this: the amendment was to use the box to put the 'XP' in if appropriate.

 

EDIT: More from Ian Fleming: https://windcutter.wordpress.com/2015/02/10/postscript-21/

Edited November 24, 2016 by Adam