Trip to England Part 9: This time we're not kidding - Debriefing.

[OnTheBranchline]

Hello everyone,

As some of you might recall, I have been thinking of visiting the UK for quite a few years now. Right now, my lovely girlfriend and I are planning to go visit England/Wales sometime in late July or early August for two weeks.

We're worked out a rough itinerary and yes, we will be renting a car.

Day 1-3: Flight in and London (have not completely planned out London yet)
Day 4: Organized bus tour of Windsor Castle, Stonehenge, and Bath
Day 5: Train to Didcot (rent car there), Swindon, and Castle Combe
Day 6: Clovelly, Tintagel Castle, Penzance (or small town in the area of it)
Day 7: St. Michael's Mount, Portsmouth (HMS Victory), stay with relatives
Day 8: Salisbury Cathedral, Tintern Abbey, Carmarthen
Day 9: Hay on Wye book town, travel to Gladstone's Library
Day 10: Snowdon Mountain Railway, Fairy Glen (Snowdon)
Day 11: Caernarfon Castle, Conwy Castle, stay at a friend's place in Crewe
Day 12: York (National Railway Museum)
Day 13: York and travel back to Didcot to return car (train to London)
Day 14: London and flight out

If you're wondering about the following:
-Castle Combe
-Clovelly
-Carmarthen

The first two are my girlfriend's suggestions based on lovely pictures from Pinterest. The third one was of personal interest. My girlfriend was looking at studying for her teaching degree in Carmarthen but did not go through with it, so she's curious on what the town was like.

Also, if you want to suggest a pretty little Cornish town instead of Clovelly (to the south/west of Tintagel Castle), that would be good.

Thoughts?

Edited September 3, 2017 by OnTheBranchline

[pH]

Not impossible, but you're going to be spending a lot of time sitting in the car.

[devonseasider]

One or two journies there that I wouldn't like to do these days but I'm guessing you're somewhat younger than me!

[phil_sutters]

Hello everyone,

 

As some of you might recall, I have been thinking of visiting the UK for quite a few years now. Right now, my lovely girlfriend and I are planning to go visit England/Wales sometime in late July or early August for two weeks.

 

We're worked out a rough itinerary and yes, we will be renting a car.

 

Day 1-3: Flight in and London (have not completely planned out London yet)

Day 4: Organized bus tour of Windsor Castle, Stonehenge, and Bath

Day 5: Train to Didcot (rent car there), Swindon, and Castle Combe

Day 6: Clovelly, Tintagel Castle, Penzance (or small town in the area of it)

Day 7: St. Michael's Mount, Portsmouth (HMS Victory), stay with relatives

Day 8: Salisbury Cathedral, Tintern Abbey, Carmarthen

Day 9: Hay on Wye book town, travel to Gladstone's Library

Day 10: Snowdon Mountain Railway, Fairy Glen (Snowdon)

Day 11: Caernarfon Castle, Conwy Castle, stay at a friend's place in Crewe

Day 12: York (National Railway Museum)

Day 13: York and travel back to Didcot to return car (train to London)

Day 14: London and flight out

 

If you're wondering about the following:

-Castle Combe

-Clovelly

-Carmarthen

 

The first two are my girlfriend's suggestions based on lovely pictures from Pinterest. The third one was of personal interest. My girlfriend was looking at studying for her teaching degree in Carmarthen but did not go through with it, so she's curious on what the town was like.

 

Thoughts?

You are taking in quite a lot in a day some days. Have you seen how much there is to see in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard - the Mary Rose exhibition has now been completed - and after quite a long drive from Cornwall? Salisbury - Tintern - Carmarthen is another long haul and somewhat across country, so some roads may not be the speediest. Be aware that you can wait quite a long time for the Snowdon Mountain Railway. We had pre-booked on a coach trip and went up on the train almost immediately, but people arriving by car were waiting between 1 & 2 hours, having booked on arrival. At Didcot there are steaming days and non-steaming days - so choose carefully. Sorry if this sounds a bit negative, but it may give you tips on refining your itinerary. I hope you both have a good time and don't find it too exhausting - I hope you are sharing the driving!

[45568]

Certainly agree regarding Portsmouth dockyard!! My wife and I had budgetted one day, we ended up going for three! The 'All-inclusive' ticket is extremely good value, and valid for 12 months. Also allow decent amounts of travelling time. Despaite the excellent motorway system, once off it travel can be slow and tedious. Salisbury to Carmarthen for example looks very ambitious; I did Portmadoc to Minehead, took me over 7 hours and I'm not a nervous driver! All travel in Wales is on A and B roads, So Carmarthen to Hay, then back to Snowdon, lots of slow driving there.

 It all seems a little ambitious to me, like visitors here they assume we drive to Adelaide for the weekend from Perth!

You may be better to work out what you really want to see, and then give yourselves time to enjoy it.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Gwiwer]

Thoughts.

 

Some of those days are unrealistic and long.  In July and August you are also in the thick of summer holiday traffic, fighting for car parks anywhere popular and paying top whack for everything from accommodation to hire cars.  

 

Unless you already know of a tour which includes all points I'd suggest Day 4 is hopelessly long.  Windsor is a half-day alone and almost a full day out from London.  Stonehenge is most of a day out and back for perhaps a 15-minute stop.  Bath is worth a day all to itself.

 

Day 6 is too long.  Clovelly requires half a day as does Tintagel and both can be avoided in peak summer as they get packed and car parks can be hard to find.  Anywhere in central Wiltshire to Clovelly will need around 3 hours driving time , allow two from there to Tintagel, three from there to Penzance in summer traffic ..... 

 

St. Michael's Mount car parks are often filled by 9am in the holidays.  Allow a half-day again. Then you'd need a minimum six hours to drive to Portsmouth before you even see anything of the place. In short you are probably over-stretching on that leg as well

 

You do not have to return a car to the place it was hired from.  It may be slightly more expensive to rent here and leave there but it's usually cheaper than the fuel and your time involved in deviating all the way back to the pick-up point.  Instead

I would do this:

 

Ditch Clovelly.  Probably ditch Tintagel.  There are other places every bit as pretty and often less busy.

Day 1 and 2 : London (much of which can be seen in a couple of hours from a tour bus)

Day 3 : Take train to Windsor then on to Portsmouth.

Day 4 : Hire car from Portsmouth and drive to Salisbury, Stonehenge then to overnight stop in Exeter

Day 5 : Drive to St. Michael's Mount and around Penzance area

Day 6 : Drive direct to Carmarthen (long, maybe 8 hours driving, but motorway standard most of the way so fairly quick)

Day 7 : Drive to Llanberis (beware of slow roads trough the Welsh hills) 

Day 8 : Snowdon Mountain Railway as early as possible then on to Carnarfon

Day 9 : Carnarfon, Conwy, Crewe.  Park the car in Crewe

Day 10 : Use the train Crewe - York - Crewe

Day 11:  Drive Crewe to Hay-on-Wye then Bath

Day 12 : Tour bus round Bath then drive to Castle Combe

Day 13 : Swindon and Didcot.  Leave the hire car at Swindon, Didcot or Reading and return to London by train

 

 

If you're prepared for a really long day then you can go via Tintagel on Day 6 on the way up from Penzance as it's not too far off the direct route.  

 

To avoid the worst of the crowds and to see as much of the local area as possible I'd suggest an evening trip around the coast which takes a couple of hours by car, plus stops.  It's light until at least 9.00pm in July.  Come back out of Penzance on the A30, turn left towards St. Ives and go through the town which you are allowed to do with a car in the evening.  Take the coast road B3306 through Zennor, Pendeen, St. Just (worth stopping for a pint) and drop down to Sennen Cove at the button roundabout.  Double back up from the Cove and turn right for Lands End which is OK after hours and probably no-one taking car park money either.  It's beauty lies in the setting sun over the ocean, not the theme park.  Return up the A30 and take first right B3315 for Porthcurno following this twisting road through Polgigga and Treen (deep, steep valley) then make right turn to stay on B3315 towards Lamorna and Newlyn.  This road eventually leads you back to Penzance.  Quite a lot of scenery.  Some stories.  some ancient sites including the Merry Maidens (Google) which you pass right by in the later stages.  Also worth Googling Zennor mermaid if you head out this way.

 

Penzance has lots of B&B to offer however my top recommendation is the Tremont.  None of it is cheap at this time of year and everywhere books out early.  

[Markeg]

You have taken on a lot.  From having done 3 weeks in a car in the UK in spring, what you have planned is nigh impossible.  26 days all up.

The UK is smaller than Victoria, but it takes you longer, if you want to visit such pretty places.  We only had two long drives, the rest we could take a little time.

We only had 2 single days where we stopped overnight. The rest were 3 and 4 days, so we could see the sights. Not be stressed at being somewhere or missing out.

If I were to go again I would stop at fewer places longer, say a week.  Such places as Cheltenham and venture out from there to Bath, Cotswolds, Severn Valley railway, etc.

York is another you could do, We had 4 days in and around York/shire and I did the NRM twice, once with my wife and then by myself the next day.  You can do North Yorkshire Railway, Shildon, visit Pickering, go west, etc.

 

As Peter C suggests, work our what you want to see and I would say base yourself near several things.  You will realise you can not see everything, even in such a small place.

Remember you can, finances and health permitting, visit again.

Stonehenge is over rated, just a pile of stones.  better to plan to drive past onto something more interesting.

Mark

[Robert]

As others have said, you are packing an awful lot in there.  Don't forget, that you tend to "drop off the edge of the world" road wise, west of Exeter.  It can take a very long time to get anywhere!  That is part of the charm, but it is worth bearing in mind.  The same is true, to a certain extent, of Wales

 

Personally, I think Stonehenge is overrated.  It is very expensive, and you don't get very near the stones at all.  You might as well view it from the A303 - or climb one of the barrows on Stonehenge down.  Avebury is, IMHO, much better.  Although, as you are doing it on an organised tour that might not be an option.  You could easily spend a complete day in Bath!

[Gwiwer]

 

 

you tend to "drop off the edge of the world" road wise, west of Exeter. 

There's truth in that but it's not always true.  People do underestimate how much farther west from Exeter M5 Services (everybody stops at Exeter Services, don't they?) the tip of Cornwall is.  If you follow the M5 for a couple of miles then stick to the A30 you can reach Penzance in a level two hours.  But only if there are no roadworks or traffic and you drive at the limit all the way.  There are currently major long-term works across Bodmin Moor and always in other places at holiday times so I'd allow a minimum of three hours currently for that stretch.  And as soon as you deviate off the A30, which is necessary to reach almost anywhere other than Hayle, Penzance or Lands End these days, you add time in large amounts.  August is also a harvesting month in the west meaning you will almost certainly be following a slow-moving tractor for quite considerable distances at times.  

 

I'd agree that Stonehenge these days is best viewed from a passing car and that Avebury offers as good a deal and is almost as well known.  

 

The proposed itinerary is very optimistic but can be achieved.  However you will spend the bulk of the holiday in the car driving and not actually being at the places you want to see.  Better perhaps to pick five or six places which you must see and work up a plan.  If that happens to take you near or past anywhere else of interest then good.  What it will often do is give you enough time to relax and enjoy those few places and discover unknown delights along the way.  I could plan you a month's tour of Cornwall west of Hayle without visiting anywhere twice and you'd still not see all there is.  If you slow down you smell the roses.  If that's not what you want then buy a ticket on a tour bus.

[bike2steam]

I'd avoid anywhere west of Exeter in July, and August, too many 'emmet's/grockles', too much traffic, and hope you got strong legs to try Clovelly.

 

Clovelly at the best time to visit - March, nice and quiet, after the icy frost has melted, oh such fun!!.

Edited November 16, 2016 by bike2steam

[Zomboid]

As has been said, unless your idea of a holiday is 9+ hours in the car every day with 30 minutes at each attraction, you want to ditch about half of that.

I'd suggest starting in London, then take the sleeper train to Cornwall, pick up a car there (I did that at Truro, but you get there very early and have some time to kill before anything opens, Penzance is probably a better bet), or even fly into Newquay and pick to a car there.

You'll need a couple of days at least to see what you want to in Cornwall, and I'd then head for North Wales. That's an all day drive, so break the journey in Bath, and stay so you've got a whole day in town.

Ditch the car in Bangor (maybe set fire to it and don't look back at the resulting explosion), and get the train across to York (maybe give yourselves a couple of hours in Manchester en route for a sly visit to MOSI). By the time you've got to York and seen things there you probably won't have that long left.

Didcot, Portsmouth and Stonehenge can be done in day trips from London, but you probably won't have enough time to do them all. I wouldn't bother with Stonehenge, having been. It's OK as an expensive service station on the A303, but I struggled to find an hours worth of things to do there.

[The Stationmaster]

Stonehenge is easy to see from the A303 - not only well visible but at that time of year you'll be stuck in a queue of traffic which keeps stopping and starting so you can look at it quite safely even if you're driving  (I think Avebury is more interesting and is (still hope) handy for some good pubs and is a quick hop down from the M4.

 

Overall I agree with the others - far too much packed into too little time and some very arduous and long days of driving on what will be busy roads.  If you're heading west into Cornwall you might miss something on the way - but you'll also see a lot more - by taking the train to Truro and picking up a hire car there.  And with the national companies hire cars don't have to be returned to the place where you picked them up.

 

So as the others have done I would suggest a rethink and look carefully at Google Maps for the driving time between the places on your itinerary but take care as a lot of the time they are now giving are 'without traffic' and you can easily double (or more) some of them in the summer holiday period. 

 

You also need to think carefully about what you want to see at each place and as Rick has said many of the more attractive places such as Windsor, Bath, and York demand a good chunk of a day in order to be fully enjoyed while Hay-On -Wye on a  first visit can take several hours just to find the bookshop which sells the things that interest you.

[Rivercider]

I like the look of the places you have chosen, most I know and like, many of the others are on our 'to do' list.

 

However to give you some idea of timescales, last year we stayed three nights in a hotel at Marazion,

amongst other places our main aim was to visit St Michaels Mount which we thought was brilliant.

 

We went across on the ferry at 11.15 and after a cup of tea walked around the gardens which are superb and enjoyed the views, had a picnic,

visited the castle, took more photos. Sat in the sun, had a pint, walked around the little harbour, and along with dozens of other folk watched the tide retreat

waiting for the causeway to uncover (you should do this), and walked back to the mainland by which time it was 16.45.

Our visit had lasted five and a half hours and we enjoyed every minute.

 

cheers

[BlackRat]

Unless you know the tide for the day you are visiting St Michaels mount, you are wasting your time.

 

Even if the tides right, and you spend just a couple of hours there, and the roads are perfect, you'll be lucky to get to Portsmouth and HMS Victory much before 1500, allow you no time at all to do the visit justice.

 

You are talking or something like 240 miles of driving and a journey time of at least 4 hours.

[Gwiwer]

Unless you know the tide for the day you are visiting St Michaels mount, you are wasting your time.

 

Even if the tides right, and you spend just a couple of hours there, and the roads are perfect, you'll be lucky to get to Portsmouth and HMS Victory much before 1500, allow you no time at all to do the visit justice.

 

You are talking or something like 240 miles of driving and a journey time of at least 4 hours.

 

And there is no quick road between Exeter and Ringwood.  The two semi-sensible options are A30 to Honiton or A3052 parallel to the coast but you're likely to end up on the A35 - A31 route by Charmouth and that can be tortuous in summer.  It's pretty in parts but it's slow.  It can be a nose-to-tail crawl for miles around the back of Poole and Bournemouth and the M27 can be at a standstill just when you think you're making progress.  I've driven between Penzance and Brighton many times over many years.  It takes at least eight hours allowing for a rest and a meal usually at Exeter and a short stop later usually for a leak.  Subtract about an hour for Portsmouth which is 40-odd miles closer to Cornwall and doesn't require the final pedestrian 10 miles of the old A27 or the A259 from Worthing onwards.

[bike2steam]

but you're likely to end up on the A35 - A31 route by Charmouth and that can be tortuous in summer. 

You aint kidding, my 'local road', we have friends live in Helston, and Callington - we have an understanding, not to bother visiting each other in July, and August, Bridport to Charmouth can near enough be nose to tail all the way, the climb at Chideok being the worst spot.

[trisonic]

You could spend 14 days in London alone and not see everything of interest....let alone relax take in and enjoy the experience. My Wife did this on her first trip and utilized the railways to go on some day trips out of London.

 

Having lived in North America since 1989 I can confirm that driving in the UK is now no fun at all and August is the worst month due to school holidays - the authorities also take advantage of the warmer weather to repair roads...

I would slash your itinerary in half.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

 

Best, Pete.

Edited November 16, 2016 by trisonic

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Thoughts?

 May sound harsh, but make a decision to ditch one of Cornwall or Wales. I'd straightforwardly suggest going to South West Wales. Just like Cornwall was half a century ago, not hideously full to bursting in summer. Pick from Manorbier, Barafundle Bay, Marloes, Newgale, Solva, St Davids and have a relaxing time in a beautiful location.

[Vanders]

Unless you already know of a tour which includes all points I'd suggest Day 4 is hopelessly long.  Windsor is a half-day alone and almost a full day out from London.  Stonehenge is most of a day out and back for perhaps a 15-minute stop.  Bath is worth a day all to itself.

You'd think, and I wouldn't try it, but Windsor/Stonehenge/Bath is a regular and popular day trip tour that numerous firms offer from London! I have no idea how they do it; I assume you get a couple of hours each before bombing back down the M4 in the evening. Doesn't seem like a fun day out to me.

[Torper]

Touristy England in July and August?  Well, rather you than me  I suggest that you give up on that idea and go to Scotland instead (it's still part of the UK, but hopefully not for much longer).  Fewer people, smaller crowds, much less traffic and driving can still be a pleasure.  And plenty to see.  But if you go to the west, don't forget the midge repellant.

 

DT

[Metr0Land]

I live about 14 miles north of Carmarthen, and given the other places you are intending to do, and how far they are from here I'd counsel caution about coming this far west.

IMHO Carmarthen is a nice place to live but isn't much of a place to visit unless you know in advance which bits you want to see. I appreciate the 'road not travelled' is quite a pull for your other half, but I feel she may well be disappointed especially given the long journey.  It's about 90 mins each way by road from Cardiff on M4/A48 which is all dual carriageway, but as I say there's not a lot to see/do for a quick touristy visit.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's nice living here with quiet roads, lovely countryside, and business that are very obliging and genuinely appreciate your custom, but I'd say it's more of a place to be rather than to visit if that make sense.

 

 

oops just read #18 above.  I'd agree with his suggestion either Cornwall or West Wales, doing both will be a slog

Edited November 16, 2016 by Metr0Land

[Neil]

I don't know which country you hale from OTBL but I suspect that it may be somewhere with big distances between places, the US, Canada or Australia spring to mind.  The relatively short distances encountered in the UK can deceive as the very compact nature of the country means that a lot of people will be sharing your part of the road network and the average point to point speed will be low. Your itinerary seems wildly ambitious and even if pruned down such a rigid structure leaves no slack to explore other unplanned things which may come your way as the trip unfolds. Rather than a tick list of sights to see could I suggest that you plan in terms of centres where you might base yourselves for a few days. I used to live in York, where there are days worth of attractions to be had, some like the railway museum are not weather dependant but some like the bar walls are best done in the dry. Similarly if you look at Wales where I now live, Snowdon really deserves a clear day, the narrow gauge railways can be all weather and some sights like Dolgoch Falls on the Talyllyn are best after a spell of heavy rain. In your shoes I'd be tempted to spend some days in London, journey through Bath to Hay for a few more days in S Wales and the marches, up to Conwy for some time in Snowdonia, across to York for a few more days followed by a return to London and your flight home. You may not get to see as many individual sights, but you'll have a more relaxing holiday and those things you do get to experience will be all the richer for not being in a rush to the next place.

[Ian Abel]

Primary CAVEAT: Time of year-wise WAY too ambitious an itinerary. Drop one of the grouped locations in favour of more time seeing less distance separated places.

 

Personal opinions ONLY, based on a trip last year (grew up in Surrey and am familiar with most of the south/west in general);

Clovelly is worth a visit, but crowds likely to be horrendous (see caveat)

We actually stayed three days in Tintagel, used it as a base, and easy to get to (even WALKING) some other "pretty Cornish fishing villages". Port Isaac (Doc Martin/Port Wenn) is close by, and we lucked out with moderate crowds, again, time you'll be there it'd probably be a nightmare!!

Stonehenge is the ultimate rip-off IMHO, a fortune for not much at all any more - got to Avebury, as others have suggested, OLDER by 2000 years, far more impressive/informational and less crowded usually.

 

We were very successful renting a car and staying in Airbnb locations, planning a route, and staying en route is better than out-and-back or coach trips with hours of wasted time - again given the time of year it'll likely be unpleasant much of the time no matter what form of transport you use... we decided to go in late May to avoid (MOST) of the travel/traffic/crowd issues.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Ian Abel

[Poggy1165]

The problem is the UK is (objectively) a small country, but to get around it takes far longer than you might think due to:

1. heavy traffic.

2. roads that vary between abysmal and merely congested.

3. sheer geography. Wales, for example, is almost completely composed of mountains, valleys and estuaries. There are few 'fast' roads, and to get around the interior of Wales takes forever.

 

Unless you are young, fit, very enthusiastic and don't plan spending much time eating, the proposed schedule is completely impractical. At best you will only have time for a cursory visit of most of the places in question.

 

York alone could easily consume two or three days. If you try to do it in one day (including a return trip from Crewe) that will probably allow you to see the NRM, or the Minster, but not both. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Poggy1165

[Tim Hall]

Avebury is far better than Stonehenge. Wandering amongst the stones at dawn or dusk is magical (open access to most of it), plus The Avenue, Silbury Hill and West Kennett Long Barrow (oh, and my aunty lives there), and a lot cheaper than Stonehenge.

 

Pembrokeshire just as pretty as Cornwall and much quieter. If we go to Cornwall, we go off peak (October a few years ago, and February next year.)

Edited November 16, 2016 by Tim Hall