Focalplane's Workbench (mostly 7mm)

[ROSSPOP]

Well on the plus side Paul it is a lovely kit.   I snatched mine on ebay as DA had withdrawn the kit.  Mine had a couple of issues.

 

The etched cylinder holes are `wellout`

 

 

amd will be a problem if you want working valves........

 

I had to fettle mine into a working set up....

 

 

 

 

 

The pre etched upper firbox washout holes are too low.........

 

 

A bit of a fag to change..... wish kits did`nt have them pre-done.....

 

 

john

[Focalplane]

Well, John, this is what RMWeb is all about!  Thanks for your observations and photos.  I have had great success with the first of David's kits and he is always happy to help out, so I am hopeful that the Castle and Patriot kits will give me satisfaction.  My second Compound kit is destined to have working valve gear (from Laurie Griffin) and that will no doubt be a challenge except again support from Laurie has been promised when I get around to it.

 

Paul

[Deano747]

Very useful info, John. I have a DA Castle to build, and was possibly next on the bench, but an upcoming house move and renovation will probably put things way behind again!!

When I spoke to David last year, he said the Castle kit was to be re-vamped, with more options, etc. I would imagine he will address any errors raised by customers.

I was also advised to fit the correct wheels (not by David), and have a redundant set of King drivers; good excuse to buy a king kit!!

Your Castle is looking really good!

 

Regards, Deano.

[Focalplane]

12BA Nuts!

 

This may help others with not so nimble fingers!

 

The 12 BA nuts that fit on Slaters' plunger pickups are an absolute "batard" to fit on, particularly when the plunger and housing are already fixed to the frame.  Two nuts have to be fixed on each plunger with the lead in between:

 

 

My fingers simply won’t work within the confines of the frame, so I came up with this idea.  Screw a nut part way onto the end of a 12BA bolt (my bolt was too long so had to be cut back to fit inside the frame.  Then hold the shaft of the bolt over the screw of the plunger and carefully spin the nut down off the bolt and onto the plunger.

 

Here is the nut ready to be installed:

 

 

I was not able to photograph the spinning bit as I only have two hands!

 

The two nuts need to be locked and I have found the best method to secure the lock is to put a small dot of glue on the end of the assembly, well away from the plunger.

[Deano747]

Paul, I have found that if you assemble the plunger and the wire on the bench, the hole in the frame is big enough to feed it all through and then solder the other end to your motor. Don't forget to thread on any spacer washers first!! 

 

Regards, Deano.

[Focalplane]

Paul, I have found that if you assemble the plunger and the wire on the bench, the hole in the frame is big enough to feed it all through and then solder the other end to your motor. Don't forget to thread on any spacer washers first!! 

 

Regards, Deano.

 

Yes, Deano, I agree with you, but the Compound's chassis is quite complicated and a dry run with plungers glued with Roket was necessary to prove that everything worked without interference.  Those outside brake rods are a bitch!

 

All was working fine until a crankpin sheared off while running in because the 12 BA nut came undone.  Boiling water allowed the crankpin to be removed and a new one inserted.  Tomorrow should see some progress after this setback.

 

The tolerances on this chassis are very fine.  Be warned!

[Jintyman]

Yes, Deano, I agree with you, but the Compound's chassis is quite complicated and a dry run with plungers glued with Roket was necessary to prove that everything worked without interference.  Those outside brake rods are a bitch!

 

All was working fine until a crankpin sheared off while running in because the 12 BA nut came undone.  Boiling water allowed the crankpin to be removed and a new one inserted.  Tomorrow should see some progress after this setback.

 

The tolerances on this chassis are very fine.  Be warned!

 

I used the Premier plunger pick-ups on the JLTRT 8750 kit, and because of the outer detail lamination on the frame, I was considering recessing the shoulder to allow clearance. In the end I turned down the shoulder to about 0.5mm and then glued it in place and it has worked a treat.

 

You're doing a lovely job on this Compound. I think these were a very underated engine as they gave excellent service without any fuss.

 

Jinty

[Focalplane]

Compound DC test runs

 

The Compound has received a lot of attention during the past ten days and at last I have something to show for it.

 

 

The chassis has had its first test run and it worked well, if a little hesitant at first.  I then added the front bogies and lots of shorts appeared, so some fettling from the backs of the cylinders and the inside of the bogie frames will need to be done.

 

The reassembly of the running gear took its toll on the paintwork but I expected that.  I also need to paint a few items that were added later or were masked off.  Matt black will be used, except for the cylinder casings which will be gloss black.

 

The cylinder steam cocks are going to be redone using heavier wire.  A DCC 8 pin socket will replace the temporary fixings.  Then it will be ready for running in and I can transfer attention to the loco body.

 

For the tender, which was completed months ago, I have done a trial fit of the bass reflex speaker.  It is a tight fit due to the internal strength of the brass frame that supports the superstructure.  The sound will point down through the tender’s chassis and a twin cable and connector will be added.

 

I have not yet decided on which decoder and sound set to use.  I do have one from Olivia’s Trains which is a generic 2 cylinder Fowler sound set but it is on a 21 pin platform, so I may put that back in the LMS Midland 1000 model I have in storage.  The high pressure cylinder didn’t actually make any sound (well it probably did but not much, as shown by the preserved Northern Ireland compound now running) and the two low pressure cylinders are cranked at 90º, so a generic 2 cylinder sound will be fine, I am just not sure which - any suggestions?

 

The quality of the photo is not up to standard but I suppose there is good reason for that, you can't see the ugly bits that need more work!

 

Paul

 

Edit to increase font size

Edited February 10, 2017 by Focalplane

[Focalplane]

Front bogie shorting resolved.

 

As noted in the previous post, the front axle bogie, when attached, caused shorting at at least four points, the worst being behind the front of the outside cylinders but also in the frame above the front wheels.

 

It tool several goes with my Dremel and grinder to remove enough material and the result isn't all that pretty.  So it's good that it won't be visible and even less so after painting:

 

 

The drain cocks need to be adjusted and the pipes added (I have made up new ones that are a bit stronger.

 

This leaves two outstanding tasks before final painting, the sand pipes and the 8 pin socket for DCC.

 

Before painting I also need to try the body on the chassis to make sure there are no other shorting issues.

[Focalplane]

I made the "mistake" of placing the body on the chassis and one of the steps was causing all sorts of sparks.  Out with the 80 watt iron!

[Focalplane]

Progress!

 

As the photos show the Compound is coming together.  After a small setback last evening (see above) the LH steps were relocated into the right position and as close as possible to the footplate valance.  Result, no shorts.  But it is a tight fit!

 

There is, as always, still a lot to do at this stage but it is good to have engine and tender paired at last, if not actually coupled.  The Compound is a large engine, certainly bigger than the 4F but smaller than the LMS 4-6-0s.  It does fit easily onto the 60 foot turntable.

 

First, two slightly different poses on the coaling track (the track in front rises up a ramp to assist transferring coal):

 

 

 

and a third on the turntable bridge:

 

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

Perhaps because I was being distracted by the France-Scotland rugby match I had problems wiring up the NEM 8 pin socket to the Compound.  And what is worse I could not detect the problem.  So I have replaced those connectors with soldered hard wire and everything is back to normal.  What I do have is an 8 pin plug and harness, so I can hardwire this to the motor and pickups.  Then plug in the 8 pin decoder of choice or a blank plug for DC.

 

I am in no particular hurry to order the DCC decoder and sound system but one thing I have learned with Gauge O is that is best to think and plan ahead.  Just as an example, YouChoos are away all next week and it would appear they may have the best Zimo + sounds option for the Compound.  "Best" is relative here because there are no sounds from a Compound available, No. 1000 having been retired before the DCC Sound option came along.  So the result is a generic sound system.

 

Just what is a generic sound system?  Well, it depends.  It may be a combination of real sounds chosen to be close to the subject, or it may be a set of computer generated sounds, or a combination of the two.  When I first became addicted to sound it was HO North American and most suppliers of sound files were happy to load examples on to their websites.  This has not been easily accepted by some British steam sound purveyors, but YouChoos have chosen the American route:

 

http://www.youchoos.co.uk/Index-Shop.php?L1=Project&Item=LMSCompound

 

If you click on this link you can access an audio file of the various sounds offered.

 

So, when they return on the 18th I will be placing an order.  It runs on a Zimo 645R decoder which I have already installed on the two Connoisseur kits.

[coachmann]

So, when they return on the 18th I will be placing an order.  It runs on a Zimo 645R decoder which I have already installed on the two Connoisseur kits.

Forget it!  Sound producer who think a 3-cylinder Compound sounds like a 3 cylinder loco don't do their reputation any favors.  Only the two outside cylinders exhaust to the chimney, ergo a Compound sounds like a normal 2-cylinder loco. Try the 4F sound.

Edited February 12, 2017 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

Forget it!  Sound producer who think a 3-cylinder Compound sounds like a 3 cylinder loco don't do their reputation any favors.  Only the two outside cylinders exhaust to the chimney, ergo a Compound sounds like a normal 2-cylinder loco. Try the 4F sound.

Larry, i know this but how do you know that the sounds are from a 3 cylinder locomotive? According to the description the sounds are derived from various 2 cylinder locos. However, i am planning to talk to them on the 18th to confirm this.

 

Just for the record my research on Compound sounds goes back three years and includes research at NRM York. The steam first passes to the high pressure cylinder, then moves on to the two low pressure cylinders. The cranks are as follows. HP at 120º 135° to the two LP which are 90° apart. Since the HP cylinder doesn't exhaust it doesn't, in theory, emit a sound. So, yes, 4F sound can be a substitute. My 4F sound is not want I would want for a greyhound as it is slightly off top dead centre and represents a poorly maintained freight loco.. And it would seem strange if both locos had the same sound. So at the moment YouChoos has the edge.

 

Thanks for your comment, it fits in well with my basic level of uncertainty in spending nearly £100 pn a decoder.

 

Edit to correct crank angle to LP1 - 135º - HP - 135º- LP2 - 90º

 

This adds up to 360º

Edited February 13, 2017 by Focalplane

[Focalplane]

Larry, here is the email I received from NRM back in 2013:

 

Thank you for your enquiry.  I have taken a couple of photos (attached)

of the original Motion Arrangement drawing (01-5029) for the Midland
Compound in the hope that this answers your question.  On checking the
Derby drawing register this applies to the as built and rebuilt
versions.  You're welcome to study this and any other drawings in more
detail here at the museum.  If that's not possible we can provide paper
copies or high resolution scans on completion of the attached order
form. 
I have checked with our curator of photo and sound collections regarding
files of the Midland Compound and he tells me that Peter Hanford did
produce a volume which is held in our archives, we believe on a 78 disk
or on reel to reel.  This is not currently accessible but there are
plans to digitise the collection and his family are releasing some of
his material sometime next year.  It's worth checking our website for
any developments in a few months time.

 

Meanwhile, Wold Swan published their monograph on the LMS Compounds in association with the NRM and the drawings referred to are in this volume.  They confirm the 90-135-135 crank arrangement.

 

Paul

[coachmann]

I have the Wild Swan publication as well as the old O S Nock book on Compounds. They were my fav loco at one time, though this has changed over the years.

 

I can hear a three-three-three exhaust on that YouChoos sound track. Trying to split it into four-four-four doesn't work. For twenty seven years now I have enjoyed breakfast with 15 minutes of a B&R Video rail video to get me in the mood for the days work. B&R soundtracks are cleverly dubbed on most of the time, which is more than can be said for some videos using old silent cine, and it is easy to spot the odd bloomer after years of listening.

 

I have a YouChoos decoder in my 4F and it can be set up to sound pretty darn good. I've not heard anything better to date. The echoing whistle is spot on and sounds just like the whistle of the preserved 4F at Keighley.

Edited February 12, 2017 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

I have the Wild Swan publication as well as the old O S Nock book on Compounds. They were my fav loco at one time, though this has changed over the years.

 

I can hear a three-three-three exhaust on that YouChoos sound track. Trying to split it into four-four-four doesn't work. For twenty seven years now I have enjoyed breakfast with 15 minutes of a B&R Video rail video to get me in the mood for the days work. B&R soundtracks are cleverly dubbed on most of the time, which is more than can be said for some videos using old silent cine, and it is easy to spot the odd bloomer after years of listening.

 

I have a YouChoos decoder in my 4F and it can be set up to sound pretty darn good. I've not heard anything better to date. The echoing whistle is spot on and sounds just like the whistle of the preserved 4F at Keighley.

 

Larry

 

The 4F sound set I have is from Digitrains, so I wouldn't have a problem using a 4F sound set from YouChoos.  So I will bring this up with them on the 18th.  No matter how much individual research one does, it is also great have input from friends, which is one of the reasons I posted in the first place!

 

Thanks, Paul

[Focalplane]

Another problem I have encountered is that the body, more than the chassis, is front heavy.  So far I have added sheet lead under the cab roof, but it looks like more lead will be required at the back of the engine.  The other option is to use the tender to weight the rear of the engine down but I would rather not rely on this if possible.

 

There a useful go by on the Gauge O Guild website but for members only.  This is a downloadable PDF file of an article on building a David Andrews 2P 4-4-0.  I certainly recommend it as an assistant to this build as well.

[coachmann]

On the LMS Compound, live steam is applied to the outside cylinders on starting. Each cylinder exhausts from the front and then the rear of the piston giving 2-chuffs per revolution of the driving wheels. Therefore two cylinders give four chuffs. When switched to compound mode, live steam is admitted to the middle cylinder which exhausts to a receiver. The outside cylinders then receive the used steam for it to do its work again (hence compounding) before it is finally exhausted to the atmosphere. 

 

I put 'Railway Roundabout 1959' on this morning to watch a Compound on the Barnt Green line. Even though the soundtrack gave 4-beats per rev, I ignored it and simply took notice of the white exhaust coming from the chimney while watching the driving wheels as the loco departed the various stations. It was clearly giving four-chuffs per wheel revolution.

[Focalplane]

Larry

 

I agree with you entirely that the sound should be 4 chuffs per revolution.

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

A change of plan - rain stop play!

 

 

Typical winter weather in southern France, first 140 kph winds from the NW, then 100 kph winds from the SE, the latter sure to bring plenty of rain, which it has.  And just in time to wreck any plans for spraying etch primer on the Compound.  I have added all the detailing bits except the backhead (which will go in after painting and the only work to do on the backhead is to add the copper wire to represent piping.

 

 

So, out with the 14XX and an initial glance at where I left off and what still has to be done.  Essentially the lubrication system on the body and the autotrain kit on the footplate/buffer beams.  If I can get these sorted by the time the rain stops (my insurance company sent me two texts this morning to be prepared for flooding!) then I will have two loco bodies to prime.

 

If the damp weather continues, then it will be back to the Sidelines coaches.

 

The good news is that the weather will eventually change to the classic Mediterranean low humidity of the warmer months.  There is a common misconception, perpetrated by travel pages in the newspapers, that southern France offers plenty of warm sunshine in February.  This is not true!

 

I just looked up and it's raining even harder!

[Focalplane]

Moving on to the 14XX autotrain layout, I have found an excellent photo of two 14XXs at Didcot with really good definition.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/articdriver/17177348238/in/photolist-saUpbw-ftqpEq-b9Kxvr-oAzdqb-4Dbs6-ruLy1R-fxV7So-aCgSst-Ad3FX5-fyDT8P-rASbD3-svKsEg-oRqbcA-rgBqzS-auZxtX-atF399-9eDvcN-4Dbs9-4Dbs8-b9JZ78-b9K7ux-8vVuoo-ftZKvR-DtT24h-Fh23cL-rEoRoi-ou8sar-aWeJai-dMz7U7-4Dbs7-nN1W1i-p8GZ6o-s9Z2VT-s46GnM-oTfKz3-b9KirT-e1FZtu-o695wy-RvgUaf-patfCB-GpGC3y-RFmRsy-FzoiNU-ANHeeG-DAwPEc-onCRWV-9xSRBm-qUcTDY-oTfRg3-fuANZ5

 

Is that really the link?  Yes, it seems to work as long as all the lines are included, but I see that the four full lines are abbreviated in the actual post!  The quite splendid photo has full copyright.

 

The two layouts are not quite the same, the electrical boxes being the most obvious, one having lost its cover.  1450 has the layout that most closely represents the contents in the kit with the cover on the junction box.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Focalplane

[Deano747]

Hi Paul, slightly off topic, but about the turntable in post 111- is that a kit, and who's? Thanks.

 

Regards, Deano.

[Focalplane]

Hi Paul, slightly off topic, but about the turntable in post 111- is that a kit, and who's? Thanks.

 

Regards, Deano.

Hi Deano

 

The kit is by Dave Smith. He used to own Metalsmith but the company has been divided into two, Dave has retained the kits, including a range of turntables in different diameters, under the name Midland Railway Centre, based in Kettering. He should be at the Kettering show next month. The kits are not easy but if you work at them carefully they work very well indeed. I have a belt drive on mine with DCC but if I did it again I would pay extra for a stepping motor drive. Mine is a 60 foot R & R. The kit includes the timber for the well and several returnable jigs that assist in getting things square.

 

Definitely recommended,

 

Paul

Edited February 15, 2017 by Focalplane

[Focalplane]

More on the turntable.  I just checked the site and it appears production has been stalled due to illness but is picking up again.  However, they will not be at Kettering next month:

 

http://www.midrailcentre.com/turntable-kits-general-information