Rufford Red Lion Square

[James Harrison]

Aha! Yes! That's the other thing I wanted to discuss! 

 

Ultimately I see Red Lion Square as a series of linked working dioramas.  Red Lion Square itself is one, Cremorne for Pittance is another and- well, we'll see, shan't we, dependant upon the eventual space I have to work with.  Two things I have decided I would like to model are a loco depot and something with a narrow gauge feeder line or exchange sidings, along the lines of a waterworks or a timber yard or a brewery. 

 

Now for the loco depot I'm quite smitten with the CLC-inspired design in Iain Rice's urban layouts book, quite possibly something to do with it being GCR in inspiration or the charming little sketch of it in the book or a mixture of the two.  I can see, almost, how 'Lindum Road Shed' would appear as a model, probably with a heavily-modded Wills northlight shed or two as a centrepiece (well, offset to the lefthand side but you know what I mean).  

 

The difficulty I personally have with that is that the Wills kit uses the wrong brickwork.  We've been here before... I'll report back when and if I have a reply but I have emailed Peco asking if the blueprints in the Craftsman kits are available separately, if they are I'll buy the blueprint (to keep my enthusiasm up) and then buy the separate building packs (when I have room for the loco depot). 

[Edwardian]

Aha! Yes! That's the other thing I wanted to discuss! 

 

Ultimately I see Red Lion Square as a series of linked working dioramas.  Red Lion Square itself is one, Cremorne for Pittance is another and- well, we'll see, shan't we, dependant upon the eventual space I have to work with.  Two things I have decided I would like to model are a loco depot and something with a narrow gauge feeder line or exchange sidings, along the lines of a waterworks or a timber yard or a brewery. 

 

Now for the loco depot I'm quite smitten with the CLC-inspired design in Iain Rice's urban layouts book, quite possibly something to do with it being GCR in inspiration or the charming little sketch of it in the book or a mixture of the two.  I can see, almost, how 'Lindum Road Shed' would appear as a model, probably with a heavily-modded Wills northlight shed or two as a centrepiece (well, offset to the lefthand side but you know what I mean).  

 

The difficulty I personally have with that is that the Wills kit uses the wrong brickwork.  We've been here before... I'll report back when and if I have a reply but I have emailed Peco asking if the blueprints in the Craftsman kits are available separately, if they are I'll buy the blueprint (to keep my enthusiasm up) and then buy the separate building packs (when I have room for the loco depot). 

 

"the wrong brickwork"?

[James Harrison]

"the wrong brickwork"?

 

Stretcher bond.  Which only became really common with cavity walls (cavity walls as we know them came in the 1880s/ 1890s, stretcher bond was tried out occasionally at that time but didn't catch on until the 1920s/ 1930s).  I doubt whether a building like a loco shed would have been built with cavity walls- more likely it seems to me they'd go for a much heavier solid masonry structure, more than one brick thick.  As such stretcher bond wouldn't be appropriate because there's no way of locking the brickwork thickness together.  You'd more likely be looking at using English or Flemish bond brickwork.     

[Edwardian]

Stretcher bond.  Which only became really common with cavity walls (cavity walls as we know them came in the 1880s/ 1890s, stretcher bond was tried out occasionally at that time but didn't catch on until the 1920s/ 1930s).  I doubt whether a building like a loco shed would have been built with cavity walls- more likely it seems to me they'd go for a much heavier solid masonry structure, more than one brick thick.  As such stretcher bond wouldn't be appropriate because there's no way of locking the brickwork thickness together.  You'd more likely be looking at using English or Flemish bond brickwork.     

 

Really, I'm surprised.

 

I assumed the answer would be something like "the kit is English Bond, but the GC used Flemish".  I did not expect to find that the kit uses Stretcher Bond; that is anachronistic and inappropriate, a real solecism.

 

Well, if and when I move from card, I won't be using Wills brickwork, though I know some modellers are almost fetishistically devoted to Wills sheets, despite their impractically small size!

[James Harrison]

Wills do produce English and Flemish bond sheets, but for some reason with this particular kit they decided to supply plain stretcher bond.  I do have, somewhere, a pack of Wills Flemish bond brick (4 sheets about 15cm x 7cm) which is quite thick and chunky and from what I can gather intended to form both the brickwork face and the shell of the building at the same time.  I didn't like it much. 

[Poggy1165]

 

My cattle train now stands at five wagons, plus a sixth building.  These start out as the Dapol BR standard cattle wagon kit, which is the right size for what I want but differs in the details. 

 

Whilst the kit is still on the sprue I cut the long tie bar between the axle boxes and remove that, and cut the 'prongs' off the bufferbeams.  That completes the alterations to the frames. 

 

The bodywork is a bit more involved; there is diagonal strapping to the ends that has to be removed first, and the fixing locations for the moveable partition have to be removed from the sides.  Then all of the iron strapping to the sides and the remaining strapping to the ends has to be bulked out with plastic strip to suggest that it's timber rather than angle iron.  Once this has been done the bodywork can be built and fitted, and once built the corner strapping also needs bulking out. 

 

The doors utilise the bottom two planks of the bottom door parts in the kit.  The upper doors are scratchbuilt in styrene sheet and strip.  I think the roof is the only major part of the kit that doesn't need alteration. 

 

Once built it is then a simple case of painting and weathering. 

 

These are quite decent replicas. There used to be a D&S kit for these (cast whitemetal) but I suspect you could only hope to find them on EBay as I believe they are among many that went into a black hole called ABS.

 

The GC had some medium cattle wagons, similar but slightly shorter, and there were also some ex-LDEC ones which ran on a steel frame. I have been trying to think of a way to do a LDEC one, but I think the only answer is to scratchbuild. (Some of these were also converted into vans in LDEC days.)

 

They (all) had quite an elaborate set of plates, including a number plate. I think these were steel letters screwed to a board, but I'm not 100% sure. I have almost completed my set of three, (brake gear not yet complete) so when I have a minute I will put up a photo to show what these plates should look like. (In 7mm they're a doddle as sets can be bought from QRM.)

[Andy Hayter]

Wills do produce English and Flemish bond sheets, but for some reason with this particular kit they decided to supply plain stretcher bond.  I do have, somewhere, a pack of Wills Flemish bond brick (4 sheets about 15cm x 7cm) which is quite thick and chunky and from what I can gather intended to form both the brickwork face and the shell of the building at the same time.  I didn't like it much. 

 

I suspect that with Flemish or English bond there would be problems with the brickwork around windows and headers being placed where a header never would have been placed.  A bricklayer would have accommodated that as he was laying the bricks, but standardised sheet designs, one (window design) imposed over the other (brick design)probably give a wrong result.

[James Harrison]

I suspect that with Flemish or English bond there would be problems with the brickwork around windows and headers being placed where a header never would have been placed.  A bricklayer would have accommodated that as he was laying the bricks, but standardised sheet designs, one (window design) imposed over the other (brick design)probably give a wrong result.

 

One of my projects last year was cladding a Metcalfe station kit in plastic Flemish brickwork sheet, which entailed a lot of measuring, cutting, marking out window apertures and so on.  I found that with a little bit of thought it was possible to get something that looked right- not saying it's bob-on perfect but looks right from most angles at most places.  It just required a little bit of thought and moving the brickwork sheet back and forth a little to ensure that it looked right around windows and that in corners I didn't end up with a stretcher running into a stretcher.  It's more the patterned effect of the brickwork bond that you notice rather than the individual bricks themselves, especially in the smaller scales. 

 

I'm not saying that it's particularly an easy or quick fix, but it can be done or at least got 90% right- which would be close enough for me. The issue is that in so doing you get a certain amount of wastage in each sheet- slivers of a few mm here and there that are of use to neither man nor beast. 

[James Harrison]

I've had a reply from Peco this morning that they will suppy the instructions and templates for the Craftsman kits separately, direct from themselves for (in the case of the loco shed) a £5 fee including postage.  So when I'm paid next week that will be on my to-do list. 

 

Work on Cremorne this morning was to put a plaster skin over the cutting sides.  The shuttering down each side of the plank wants to keep springing loose, so once the plaster has dried I'll cut down the shuttering flush with the top of the cutting and then do a last bit of card or paper lattice work to tie the edging in.  Then a bit more plaster on top, then I'll do the retaining toe walls....

[James Harrison]

Et Voila!

 

 

Side shuttering was very carefully cut back and then the cardboard papier- mache brought over the lip to tie the side profiles into the scenery.  You'll notice at the end I haven't completely cut it away, because the ballast in one or two spots went bald yesterday as I turned CfP over this way and that to secure the shutters.  This seems also an opportunity to get the ballast right up to the edge of the scene without the risk of it pouring off the end as the glue is setting.  So a little bit more ballasting to do, a little bit more plastering to do.  But overall I'm starting to see the scene I had imagined coming to life. 

[Poggy1165]

 

That station looks classic MS&L.

 

I'm sorry the photo isn't brilliant, but I hope it shows what the plates are and where they should go. Although I think the 10 Tons can go either side.

 

Sadly prototype photos of cattle wagons in GC condition are rare, but those I have seen, including the ex-LDEC one, all seem to have this collection of plates.

 

Similar plates were put on other GC wagons, notably sleeper wagons. So while it might be tempting to suggest the idea was to stop cattle licking off lead based paint, I think the truth is it was just an MS&L/GC quirk.

 

If anyone is interested, the Cheshire Lines had a similar practice for cattle vans. 

 

[James Harrison]

IMG_2756.JPG

 

That station looks classic MS&L.

 

I'm sorry the photo isn't brilliant, but I hope it shows what the plates are and where they should go. Although I think the 10 Tons can go either side.

 

Sadly prototype photos of cattle wagons in GC condition are rare, but those I have seen, including the ex-LDEC one, all seem to have this collection of plates.

 

Similar plates were put on other GC wagons, notably sleeper wagons. So while it might be tempting to suggest the idea was to stop cattle licking off lead based paint, I think the truth is it was just an MS&L/GC quirk.

 

If anyone is interested, the Cheshire Lines had a similar practice for cattle vans. 

 

Thank you!  I think it will be even better when the cuttings and retaining walls are finished.  It's very nearly there and my only regret so far with it is that I couldn't make the platforms any longer. 

 

Very useful photograph of the cattle wagon; so far I have limited transfer work to the 'GC' lettering (I don't tend to number my rolling stock as they are, at best, caricatures) but I think there are ways I can suggest the iron plates- a lick of black paint perhaps before applying the lettering. 

[James Harrison]

I can't do much about the plate for the GC lettering, which is already slightly larger than scale (limitations of the lettering transfers I have) but I have used a paint pen to sketch in the backing plates to the wagon numbers and loading weights. Granted these wagons (like the rest of my rolling stock) won't be numbered but the plate at least is suggested. Good, better, best and all that.

[richard i]

I can't do much about the plate for the GC lettering, which is already slightly larger than scale (limitations of the lettering transfers I have) but I have used a paint pen to sketch in the backing plates to the wagon numbers and loading weights. Granted these wagons (like the rest of my rolling stock) won't be numbered but the plate at least is suggested. Good, better, best and all that.

We do what we can, perhaps some homemade transfers on white transfer paper might work?

Richard

[James Harrison]

I might go down that route another time- I'm so close to finishing this rake (for a given value of) that I'd like to complete it and perhaps come back to it again once the method is perfected.  But I'll bear it in mind for another project where it may come in useful. 

[James Harrison]

Wahey!  We'e back after a few days enforced silence.  Thanks to Andy for keeping us all informed as to how the upgrade was going. 

I've made what I would like to think is good use of the downtime;

1. The first retaining walls have been built and fitted for CfP (tall walls around the back of the platform shelter);

2. The last of the cattle wagons has been completed- the first of my specialised freight trains is now finished;

3. The GWR Python van has been built and (largely) painted, a few areas of it still to address but that too is nearly finished. 

Photographs later!

[James Harrison]

The first complete freight train! (Well, except for a locomotive....) You can also see the progress to date on Cremorne for Pittance, if I get around to it this weekend the plan is to complete that first tall retaining wall and then give the cuttings another dosing of plaster. 

The now-completed Python van.  Since the photograph was taken the truss rodding, footsteps and roof have all been painted. So, another thing ticked off the to-do list. 

[James Harrison]

Well, I finished the tall retaining wall this morning, or rather finished the front face of it, and it almost wants to push out and bow.  I think the problem is that I've just fitted it straight to the sheer side of the cutting, so it is trying to peel away.  I've still got the top and the back of it to build so I can bulk it out and save it, but it's one to chalk up to experience.  In future I think any retaining walls or the like I'll treat as structural and build up in situ around a securely fixed timber core. 

The cutting itself has now had a second coat of plaster, which I intend to be the last.  The next stage will be to smooth it down a little, then build and fit all of the retaining walls (I mean, the toe walls to the rear of the platforms) and then I'll see about putting down a coat or two of paint for the soil. 

[James Harrison]

I've continued the tall retaining wall around, bulked it out and decided on a dodge so I don't have to try and model a rear brickwork face- I'm building up the ground level to the rear of the wall level with the coping along the top. 

 

I have to admit I'm having almost second thoughts about it, that cut-back around where the platform shelter nestles into it looks unneccesarily complicated; would they really have built something like that?- yes, after a fashion, looking at Carrington for instance.  I'm almost considering breaking out the dremel and the saw and the stanley knife and removing a long wedge of both of the cutting sides, which would allow me then to put the retaining walls in as solid blocks of balsa.  But it would be a huge task to accomplish, and require so much work to be undone.  Possibly wait for everything I've done this afternoon to dry out and set, and take a view on it in the morning.   

 

In more productive news I've ordered some templates and instructions for the Wills 2-road northlight shed from Peco. Lindum Road shed is decidedly in the 'far, far future' file (between now and building it lie at least several months at my new job, a house purchase and, I'm hoping, a restoration project on same- then of course RLS and CfP would be the priorities of the layout) but the first step has been taken...

[James Harrison]

Right, decision made.  That retaining wall is going to stay.  Where it meets the path up to the road, I'm going to discard my original idea of a 90-degree corner taking it back into the cutting in favour of a long 'wedge' of wall running along the path to a point where the cutting side becomes less vertiginous.  I think what I'm taking away from this is it pays to plan things out a little more, and phase construction a little more, and perhaps not let my enthusiasm run away with itself.  Anyway, yes, that's the plan, for now. 

 

Last night for whatever reason I dug out a load of old Railway Modellers from around 1996 - 2000.  I remember I took it monthly from the April of 1996 through to about 2002/03, then stopped until about 2012/13.  At some point between those two dates, I discarded some of them (deciding that some issues had nothing really of interest for me) but I kept around half of them or so.  In one of the 1999 issues there's a letter regarding an article by Ian Clark about a GCR loco stud (October 1998)- I've kept that issue and I treasure it!- and then a comment from the editor that there would be a further article shortly about a GCR engineers train.  I can't remember reading that article at the time and I'm not sure if it was published, and if so, which issue.... 

 

So, a bit of an appeal.  Could anybody point me to the article?  Would be by Ian Clark and appear in Railway Modeller, I would estimate, sometime between the latter half of 1999 and 2001/ 02?

[James Harrison]

A-ha!  Found it.  "An Engineer's Train", March 1999.  Hmm, it's for an LMS train, but I do have the Ratio permanent way train kit which is built, a bit bashed and going to waste in one of my boxes... I wonder....  Time to break out the wagons and my copy of Tatlow's GN/GC/GE wagons book....

Edited February 3, 2019 by James Harrison

[James Harrison]

Right, initial impressions.  The 3-plank ballast wagons in the Ratio kit are quite close to GCR types, the framing at the ends needs to be cut down, they need fairly hefty stop blocks fitting and the axle boxex need covering.  The double bolster is less of a fit, being too long, but I think I could live with that, but the brakes would need reconsidering.  I think I have bits in my spares boxes to deal with that.  The GCR also had some steel ballast hopper wagons and-somewhere- I have a Hornby hopper, which I think I'll dig out and compare/contrast with the photograph in Tatlows. 

 

Ballast brakes would appear to be a motley collection of superannuated old stock and new purpose builds,  I have a Triang NE brakevan sitting idle (the plan was to convert it to a GCR 4-wheel type but I might hold back for a kit of one of those) which I think could be a useful starting point for a ballast brake. 

 

Mess vans and tool vans again seem to have been a motley collection of superannuated goods and passenger stock, I could do worse than using one or two Hornby 4-wheelers as the basis for a few of those- arguably I could do better too, if I could find a couple of Bachmann's TTTE 6-wheel carriages going for a song. 

[James Harrison]

 

It will need a lot of work but I think I have something I can work with.

 

- Mess van (Hornby 4-wheeler);

- Tool van (ditto)

- Double bolster (Ratio kit)

- Dropside ballast wagon x 2 (ditto)

- Ballast hopper (Hornby)

- Ballast brakevan (Triang)

 

Lots and lots of work to do as I say, it appears that mess vans, tool vans and ballast brakevans were an odd mix of new purpose built stock and converted superannuated passenger carriages and covered vans, and, judging by the tables in Tatlow's book, it would be fair to say that no two would have been the same.  Indeed, some of them in the book look more sheds on wheels than one-time revenue-earning stock. 

 

But this is a project for a little while yet.  I have a pair of GCR covered vans curretly under way.  These are very simple conversions of Parkside LNER fish vans, with the 'FISH' plate sanded off. 

[Poggy1165]

The GC had some hired ballast wagons that were very similar to the Midland 3 planker* bar for the brakes. 

 

* by which I mean the Slater's kit. Obs, the MR had more than one type of 3 planker, who didn't?

 

The hard bit might be the lettering! The buffer guides look to be a little longer than most. NB, GC service stock was usually in red oxide. (Sleeper wagons were grey because (I suspect) they were sometimes used in traffic.)

Edited February 4, 2019 by Poggy1165
Clarification of statement re MR wagon

[James Harrison]

I didn't realise they were red!- that saves me an awkward mistake.  I'll keep an eye out for some Slaters Midland stock, although I'm happy with the length of the train currently I seenothing wrong with buying/ building spare wagons just to ring the changes- or, who knows, a second permanent way train.