First Time at Fitting Signals.

[Ray Von]

Hello All!

 

So my N gauge layout is "done" from the point of view that I have the bare bones of a functional layout, my next BIG hurdle is the fitting of a set of signals (a simple red/green LED)

 

However, I want it to function in a specific way and I've included an image to try and make it clearer. Essentially, I want multiple IR sensors sited around the layout as shown - and I'd like them to fulfil specific roles (getting complicated isn't it?)

 

I have had a look at Heathcotes website, and they look like they really know their stuff! But after emailing them with my requirements some time ago, I haven't yet heard back...

 

So - over to you, if anyone can suggest a course of action (even if it is "forget it!") I'd really appreciate the help!

 

All the best, Ray.

[richard.h]

I have bought  sequencers and signals from Heathcote and I found that it was easier to ring, he is very helpful over the phone and will probably be able to sort things out for you.

On a personal note I originally wanted to run the signals as a linked sequence where they changed in a pattern as the trains passed through.

In practise though I found the timings difficult to set up, possibly because there wasn't sufficient distance between each on my layout so I changed to individual sequencers for each signal and just set each one up with the adjustment pot underneath to match my average loco speed.

 

They now work correctly after I bought extra ones and Heathcotes let me exchange the linked version for the individual type.

[Ray Von]

I'm afraid that this is all Greek to me! Rings and linked sequences and adjustment pots etc...

I don't intend to be rude but I am speaking as an absolute beginner, and on behalf of, all absolute beginners​.

[Mick Bonwick]

How many signals do you intend to have, and what is it that each one will be protecting? Your diagram appears to only have one signal in it although you refer to a set of signals.Clive may still be trying to figure out what you are asking!

[Ray Von]

Cheers Mick,

 

One signal post as indicated by the white arrow on the image - it seems to me like I'm asking for something Avant Garde in this respect. IE, one signal with four sensors each dedicated to a colour?

[Mick Bonwick]

Avant Garde describes your idea rather well, actually! Heathcote equipment, and most other signalling equipment, is aimed at creating a realistic environment where signals protect bits of track in such a way as to prevent trains colliding by giving instructions to drivers. If you only have one signal on this layout you can't achieve that! Am I right in assuming that running is bi-directional? If so one direction will not have any protection from the signal at all. Maybe you should explain your requirement in a bit more detail and then things might become clearer.

[The Johnster]

Ray, it is difficult for us to asses exactly what it is you are trying to achieve, with the apparent anomaly of just one signal in one direction.  The layout suggests that bi-directional running is needed to shunt the siding on the right hand side of the picture, which suggests that a signal or signals is needed in the other direction.  You are sort of inferring this from sensors A and B, which are in the position that signals protecting the exit from the passing loops in each direction would be.  Assuming you are intending to follow, or at least appear to follow, UK practice, one signal in one direction is not enough, sorry.

 

For the sake of argument, let us make the clockwise direction up, and the anticlockwise direction down.  You now have a bi-directional single line with a passing loop at the top of the picture.  You need a signal to control the exit from the up loop at A and for the down loop at B (UK practice is for left hand running on double track in general).  These could, at a push, be the only ones you need, with shunting 'subsidiary' signals called ground position lights controlling movements into and out of the sidings.  But that would mean that automation by sensors would not be possible, as at least two signals in each direction are needed, as it is impossible for one signal to be green and then be automated to go to red as a train would already be in the 'section'; there is only one section in each direction.  I would say that the easiest way to control the signals is by manually switching them.

 

 

My apologies if I have failed to completely understand what you are trying to do; it is probably my fault!  I am a Luddite when it comes to electronics and automation, so am not quite up to speed with what the Heathcotes signals and sensors can do, but I think they are an attempt to replicate automatic signalling on plain lines, in which the passage of trains sets the signals to red, yellow, and then green behind them after a safety overlap.  This cannot be achieved with one signal in each direction.  If you have an extra signal in each direction, then a green/red/clearing back to green sequence can be achieved with 2-aspect signals, but only one train at a time can run around the circuit, and needs to be stabled in one of the sidings before another one can proceed in that direction, or stabled in a siding or it's loop in the appropriate direction; if you were intending trains to follow each other round the circuit controlled by the signals, that will not work!

 

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.

[DCB]

I sort of get what you are trying to achieve, a sort of automatic traffic light operated by approaching trains.

 

Full size signals work in two different ways.   1) The old Steam era 19th Century way had signals held at Red unless a train was due in which case the signalman changed it to green if the line was clear and put it back to red as soon as the Train had passed.  This continues in semaphore signal areas.

2) The Modernisation era Colour light signal era in which the signals remain at green until a train passes in the correct direction at which point they turn Red until the train passes a sensor at the next signal at which point the signal changes normally to yellow until the train passes the next but one signal then two yellows and finally green after the next signal after the next but one. Delete the two yellows if you only have three aspects.  These signals remain green after a train has passed in the "wrong" direction even on a single line

 

Red/ Green colour light signals are rare on full size railways, they were used in place of semaphore signals in difficult locations and operated by signalmen but even then were often of the singe lens "Searchlight" pattern which showed green and red through a single lens.

 

I think the nearest compromise you are going to get is a sensor right by the signal to turn the signal red as the train passes it with a sensor at A to turn it green which a train can stop just short of if you want to run a train the other way.  There seems little point in the original D sensor it will turn the signal green as a train backs in.  Much better to have a manual "sensor" to turn the signal green when required.  A second one to turn it red would be a good idea.

 

I designed a fully automatic semaphore signal and power feed system for my loft layout.  Projected cost exceeded £1000 and I couldn't work out how to make it work (because it was impossible to work out which conflicting move had authority.)  This signalling lark is a hobby in itself and may well be best avoided  You have been warned!

 

[The Johnster]

Looks like David's got a better grasp of this than I have!  As an additional point (sorry), though, 'modern', colour light, signals are of two basic sorts, 'automatic' ones as you seem to be after and as David describes, installed and left to their own devices to be operated by the trains, and 'controlled' ones, under the direct control of the signal box, panel, or signalling centre.  These are used wherever there is pointwork to protect or junctions of any sort to route a train, in other words, they are the sort that would be used in real life on a full sized version of your layout.

 

There is a third type, a semi-automatic that is normally worked by the trains but can be manually controlled by the signaller as well.  They are identifiable by a plate on the post facing the traffic; in the case of an automatic signal it will be a white plate with a horizontal black bar, and the signal number will not be prefixed by the code for the box/panel/signalling centre, e.g. DM264 for Down Main number 264.  A semi-automatic signal will look similar but have 'SEMI' printed above the black bar.  A controlled signal will have no such plate, and the number will be something like CF25 for Cardiff Signalling Centre number 25.  Up signals are numbered in an odd sequence and down ones in an even one IIRC, and CF125 will be on a road adjacent to CF25 (these are random examples rather than actual signals).

 

David's plan apparently assumes that your main direction of running is anti-clockwise and the signal faces that way, away from the camera; if this is so I completely misunderstood your intentions, literally getting it backwards, and may have misled you a bit.  But I still don't like the use of an automatic signal where it is protecting pointwork and controlling movements into sidings and a loop; this would be a controlled signal in real life, and I cannot see how you can run trains clockwise (of course you may not be planning on doing this anyway).  To run clockwise you need a signal at B, and only one signal can be green at any given time; for much of the time both will be red.

 

Can I ask what sort of trains you want to run?  I am assuming some sort of post steam setup because you do not want to use semaphore signalling, but is it a shunting layout, a single line with passing loop, are you going to run passenger trains?  I ask because the requirements for signalling a shunting layout or a freight only line are different and a bit more leeway can be allowed, a lot more if it is a shunting layout where you can arguably get away with no signals at all as all movements are controlled by handsignals from shunting staff on the ground.

[DCB]

I have assumed the signal "Faces"  the approaching train, so the train to which the signal relates  travels in the opposite direction to the arrow.   If that's not the case please dis regard my previous post.

[Ray Von]

Hi guys, this is all very useful stuff - I really appreciate it.

So, I have attached a pic that hopefully expands on my idea (I have left the siding at the rear of the layout out of the equation for now, just to keep things less confusing!)

The greyed out area of the layout is roughly the part that won't be visible. So, as you can see it is all about the sidings at the front - which are up and down.

 

The arrows represent the direction a shunter will leave the loop and the colour the light will be at this time, the coloured dot corresponds to that which the signal should change to, once the shunter has passed the sensor (A or B on the diagram.)

 

The theory is - shunter A enters the loop and the sensor makes the signal change "Green." At this point, the points are changed and shunter B leaves the other loop, when this shunter reaches its sensor and the signal changes "Red" and the process is reversed. In practice, this gives a nice illusion of the same train arriving empty and leaving full. The signals, were just my idea of indicating when to throw the points - a sort of indicator.

 

I hope this makes a bit more sense, apologies if it doesn't read very well I've typed it out v quickly during my lunch!!

 

EDIT: SORRY CHAPS I CANNOT GET THE RIGHT IMAGE TO ATTACH TO THIS POST, I'VE EVEN DELETED THE ONE YOU CAN SEE HERE BUT IT WON'T GO!! THERE SHOULD BE A COLOURED DOT TO INDICATE A SENSOR, GREEN AT "A" AND RED AT "B" - INFURIATING!

[Ray Von]

This seems to be the only way to bypass the Ghost in the Machine!!