Electrification - Back to Square One

[Joseph_Pestell]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-bi-mode-train-technology

 

Copied over from the 319 bi-mode discussion in case some folk are not following the specific electrification threads.

 

What a complete farce! All these routes should have been electrified long ago. But Govt can just not get its act together.

 

In times past, a Minister would have had to resign over this. But not such a respectful system these days as evidenced by the cynicism of announcing this right at the end of the parliamentary session after the last PMQs.

[Grovenor]

New bi-mode train technology offers seamless transfer from diesel power to electric that is undetectable to passengers.

Must be some fantastic insulation to stop the passengers detecting that big diesel starting up under their feet.

Regards

[St. Simon]

Must be some fantastic insulation to stop the passengers detecting that big diesel starting up under their feet.

Regards

 

The IEP engines are extremely quiet, so I doubt that they will be detected by passengers upon starting.

 

Well, this keeps me in a job, I'm designing the stuff to make the units change from electric to diesel (and vice versa) for Western!

 

Simon

Edited July 20, 2017 by St. Simon

[woodenhead]

The IEP engines are extremely quiet, so I doubt that they will be detected by passengers upon starting.

 

Well, this keeps me in a job, I'm designing the stuff to make the units change from electric to diesel (and vice versa) for Western!

 

Simon

Given the Government's cash conscious approach to all this, does this involve a giant switch on the side of a unit and a lump of concrete just above rail level like the old Triang Travelling Post Office?

[chrisf]

 

In times past, a Minister would have had to resign over this. But not such a respectful system these days as evidenced by the cynicism of announcing this right at the end of the parliamentary session after the last PMQs.

 

It's called picking a good day to bury bad news.  

 

Perhaps an admission that the industry had bitten off more than it could chew would have been a better idea.  I am old enough to recall the Modernisation Plan, the decision to electrify the WCML in preference at the time to the ECML, the reappraisal part way into the project which could so easily have seen it confined to Manchester -- Crewe and, eventually, the sparks effect when it was all finished.  I am very much afraid that the industry and its disparate parts has blown all chance of further wiring for a generation.  Could other countries with substantial electrified mileage have made such a pig's ear of installing it as we have done?  Whatever happened to the green credentials of electric traction?

 

Chris 

[D854_Tiger]

The government cannot be expected to write Network Rail an open cheque for electrification work.

 

The fact is unexpected problems with the existing projects have led to massive cost overrun in a way that must surely change the cost benefit equation considerably.

 

Unless Network Rail can find a way to do these projects more quickly and at lower cost then government has little choice.

[D854_Tiger]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-bi-mode-train-technology

 

Copied over from the 319 bi-mode discussion in case some folk are not following the specific electrification threads.

 

What a complete farce! All these routes should have been electrified long ago. But Govt can just not get its act together.

 

In times past, a Minister would have had to resign over this. But not such a respectful system these days as evidenced by the cynicism of announcing this right at the end of the parliamentary session after the last PMQs.

 

 

Reading that statement would I be wrong in assuming North Wales might be getting IEPs also.

[rodent279]

I think part of the problem lies in the big gap of 2 decades or so between large electrification projects.

ECML finished 1990-91. GWML started - what, 2010?

Ok there was CrossCity and a couple of other bits, but nothing on the scale of either of those two. Skills have been lost.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The government cannot be expected to write Network Rail an open cheque for electrification work.

 

The fact is unexpected problems with the existing projects have led to massive cost overrun in a way that must surely change the cost benefit equation considerably.

 

Unless Network Rail can find a way to do these projects more quickly and at lower cost then government has little choice.

Fair point. Too many contractors to both Govt and Local Govt have got away with overcharging for years. Now that public finances have to be managed more carefully, they don't know how to work more efficiently as they always should have done. It's a first cousin to the disease of low productivity subsidised by constantly devaluing the currency.

[black and decker boy]

I think part of the problem lies in the big gap of 2 decades or so between large electrification projects.

ECML finished 1990-91. GWML started - what, 2010?

Ok there was CrossCity and a couple of other bits, but nothing on the scale of either of those two. Skills have been lost.

im not sure I really buy that, certainly not for the GWML. The only extra skills are in deploying the actual catenary wires & droppers. The rest is just basic civil engineering combining geometry, structural strength, geotechnical and electrical design. There are plenty of UK and global design consultants with the manpower and credentials to cope with that.

 

What has been missing is basic project management and pre construction investigation. That has little to do with the gap in OHLE projects as its obvious to anyone in the construction industry that you first need to accurately map your route, s&t cabling, structures and soils before you do any detailed design and most definitely before you let construction contracts. NR opted to do the reverse.

 

NR have been the architect of their own downfall sadly.

[black and decker boy]

Fair point. Too many contractors to both Govt and Local Govt have got away with overcharging for years. Now that public finances have to be managed more carefully, they don't know how to work more efficiently as they always should have done. It's a first cousin to the disease of low productivity subsidised by constantly devaluing the currency.

Sorry but in terms of GWML that's bo11ox

 

The Civils contractors were signed up before detailed design was started and then paid to fill the gaps. NR did not know the scope of the work before they started or before they signed up the contractors. When that scope became clear and all of the delays incurred getting to that point were added in, you get your massive overspend.

 

Also consider that s&t renewal, track & station remodelling has been added in, some for the DfT wonder train IET which wasn't in the original plans then the whole saga becomes a political mess.

[The Johnster]

The IEP engines are extremely quiet, so I doubt that they will be detected by passengers upon starting.

 

Well, this keeps me in a job, I'm designing the stuff to make the units change from electric to diesel (and vice versa) for Western!

 

Simon

 

I wonder how quiet, or vibration free, they'll be thrashed to keep time up Stormy or Skewen?

 

Not getting at you, Simon, all you're doing is the switchgear!

[Rivercider]

Looking with a massive amount of hindsight here, but was there ever any thought to wire the GWML in stages?

Firstly extend the wires to Reading/Oxford/Newbury, this would have allowed some learning on the job.

Then later extend westwards which could have been costed and planned with much more certainty.

 

cheers

[The Johnster]

The government cannot be expected to write Network Rail an open cheque for electrification work.

 

The fact is unexpected problems with the existing projects have led to massive cost overrun in a way that must surely change the cost benefit equation considerably.

 

Unless Network Rail can find a way to do these projects more quickly and at lower cost then government has little choice.

No good blaming NR for unexpected problems, they are, um, unexpected, but fair to blame Central Government for not allowing NR enough finance for wobble room to cope with them.  Underfunding a project that should have had the financial resilience to avoid the overrun costs in the first place, and then blaming the poor sods trying to get it built with not enough money won't wash!

 

Derelict church in Cardiff, not NR's responsibility, fell down on Tuesday blocking road and closing SWML for a while, all trains running on up and reliefs at the moment until the site is confirmed stable.  This adjacent to Splott Road ovebridge in the process of being raised by NR to clear OHLE; not yet known if bridge work has had a bearing on the collapse, but there is bound to be a cost and time impact on the project.  Finance having been cut to the marrow, never mind the bone, is the OHLE now going to stop at Newport?  Or is there enough in the piggy bank to make it as far as the new private initative Cardiff East Park'n'Ride?

 

The government cannot be expected to write NR an open cheque for electrification work, but it is responsible for properly funding work it wants and has been mandated to have done in the national interest; no wonder Swansea are feeling a bit left out; they are as much a part of the national interest as anyone else, being part of the nation.

[The Johnster]

It's called picking a good day to bury bad news.  

 

Perhaps an admission that the industry had bitten off more than it could chew would have been a better idea.  I am old enough to recall the Modernisation Plan, the decision to electrify the WCML in preference at the time to the ECML, the reappraisal part way into the project which could so easily have seen it confined to Manchester -- Crewe and, eventually, the sparks effect when it was all finished.  I am very much afraid that the industry and its disparate parts has blown all chance of further wiring for a generation.  Could other countries with substantial electrified mileage have made such a pig's ear of installing it as we have done?  Whatever happened to the green credentials of electric traction?

 

Chris 

 

I think the other countries probably did make pig's ears' of their varying projects, probably a whole pig farm's worth, but being other countries and having taken the decision to fund these massive projects to the finish whatever happened, just shrugged their shoulders, (especially the French, of course), and got on with it, pushing through regardless and worrying about the bill later because they knew that it is still cheaper in the long run to complete the project and gain benefit from it as soon as you are able than to faff around spending billions in order to save millions while denying whole regions access to electrifications for over 50 years (the time since all the bridges between Cardiff and Newport on the Gwent levels were raised by 4 courses of bricks in 1964 in advance of electrification in the next decade, two tops) .  Brits are too cost conscious, short termist, and mean-spirited to work like that, and only fund things properly if they are called Crossrail.

Edited July 20, 2017 by The Johnster

[rodent279]

...... Brits are too cost conscious, short termist, and mean-spirited to work like that....

I think you've just summed it up quite neatly with those 14 words.....

Edited July 20, 2017 by rodent279

[tamperman36]

How much of the cost increases are caused by having to find companies who can manufacture the equipment to the right technical specs and using the right materials. In years gone by we had more engineering firms who local to the job, who when competing for the contract could keep prices competitive, where as now there are far fewer engineering firms so they can charge what they feel like.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Another cost driver is the increase in the specification these days. Signals and their foundations are strong enough to tie up the Queen Mary in a force 9. I don't think many put in on the WCML during 1959-66 have fallen over except due to train impact despite just having about one cubic metre of concrete holding them up.

[TheSignalEngineer]

How much of the cost increases are caused by having to find companies who can manufacture the equipment to the right technical specs and using the right materials. In years gone by we had more engineering firms who local to the job, who when competing for the contract could keep prices competitive, where as now there are far fewer engineering firms so they can charge what they feel like.

Continuity of work is also important in keeping costs down. Staff become more experienced, doing the job quicker and better than when people are always coming and going due to peaks and troughs.

[rodent279]

Continuity of work is also important in keeping costs down. Staff become more experienced, doing the job quicker and better than when people are always coming and going due to peaks and troughs.

Aye...

[St. Simon]

Given the Government's cash conscious approach to all this, does this involve a giant switch on the side of a unit and a lump of concrete just above rail level like the old Triang Travelling Post Office?

 

Not quite, I'm not working on anything on the train, it's some track equipment.

 

I wonder how quiet, or vibration free, they'll be thrashed to keep time up Stormy or Skewen?

 

Not getting at you, Simon, all you're doing is the switchgear!

 

Good point, I suspect they might be like the 22x units, which I find to be not all that bad.

 

Simon

[RANGERS]

Not quite, I'm not working on anything on the train, it's some track equipment.

 

 

Good point, I suspect they might be like the 22x units, which I find to be not all that bad.

 

Simon

 

Comfortable though they are, the 222s are anything but vibration free. Some are better than others but the worst of them are on a par with first generation DMUs, only the bonded glazing stops the glass rattling in the windows at idle.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Good point, I suspect they might be like the 22x units, which I find to be not all that bad.

 

Simon

But have you done a 90 minute each way commute in them? I got adept at finding alternative permitted routes preferably using electric stock.

[brianusa]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-40665659

 

Perhaps its time to rethink the whole electrification process in view of this latest example and the general woes of the GW main line. Diesel power is a proven example and you don't need all the associated overhead, wires and whatever else is needed. Due to expense, it was never likely to encompass the whole rail network, the south west is a prime example which fortunately will be spared the electrical eyesores across the countryside.

 

Brian.

[phil-b259]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-40665659

 

Diesel power is a proven example and you don't need all the associated overhead, wires and whatever else is needed.

 

It is however also proven to be less environmentally friendly, has worse acceleration rates and is nosier than electric traction, but to assume it is the be all and end all of motive power takes that a step too far.  Thats not to say it doesn't have its place of course in the traction mix of course, but as with automobiles, if we can find a way to get rid of it where possible then so much the better.