1434

[johnarcher]

Another 517 question if I may.

In Smith's 'Golden Valley' book there is a photo of 517 No. 1434 c1927, a 517 in the place, time and condition I want. It is broadside view, but the back end is cut off. It has an open cab, but doesn't show the bunker. Does anyone know if there is another picture of this engine, about this date, that would show what bunker style it had then?

[Miss Prism]

open cab, 1927, probably like this:

 

http://www.brucehunt.co.uk/835%20class%20517%200-4-2T%20GWR.jpg-for-web-large.jpg

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/keyword/1436;gwr/i-c28NHHk/A

[johnarcher]

open cab, 1927, probably like this:

 

http://www.brucehunt.co.uk/835%20class%20517%200-4-2T%20GWR.jpg-for-web-large.jpg

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/keyword/1436;gwr/i-c28NHHk/A

Thanks for the suggestion, it seems the most likely answer (though in the same book there is 521, about the same date, with a rear spectacle-plate bunker).

 

They are unpredictable little engines aren't they?

[Miss Prism]

you mean something like this?

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1199.htm

[johnarcher]

Yes, like that. It seems a bit late for one of those, anyway I hope 1434 had a bunker like your first suggestion, it's more attractive.

 

Incidentally (I haven't the RCTS volume) was 1434 built medium or long wheelbase? If the former I assume probably converted to long before this date?

[Miss Prism]

1433–1444 (lot C2) were built with a 15' wb, but what 1434's wheelbase or tankwidth was like in 1927 I don't know. (I don't have access to my RCTS at the moment.)

 

For more confusion, read:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92797-george-armstrongs-masterpiece/

[johnarcher]

Thanks. I have searched online but the relevant RCTS volume doesn't seem to be available anywhere at the moment (if anyone knows different please tell me).

From the thread you linked to, the GWR.org article etc, am I wrong in suspecting that the 15ft wheel base ones were built with inside rear bearings, so if one has outside bearings it has been converted to long wheelbase? Or is that too simple?

[Miss Prism]

From the thread you linked to, the GWR.org article etc, am I wrong in suspecting that the 15ft wheel base ones were built with inside rear bearings, so if one has outside bearings it has been converted to long wheelbase? Or is that too simple?

 

Most outside-bearinged ones were 15'6". Without going through the history, I'm not sure whether one can say all 15' were or remained inside-bearinged.

[johnarcher]

Thanks again. As I said i can't get hold of the RCTS volume, so if at some point you can get at yours, and it doesn't take too long, I'd be grateful for a bit more confirmation about 1434.

 

Thanks

[asmay2002]

Thanks again. As I said i can't get hold of the RCTS volume, so if at some point you can get at yours, and it doesn't take too long, I'd be grateful for a bit more confirmation about 1434.

 

Thanks

You want part 6 I think

https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=white&title=locomotives+great+western+railway&lang=en&new=1&used=1&ebooks=1&destination=gb&currency=GBP&binding=*&isbn=&keywords=&minprice=&maxprice=&min_year=&max_year=&mode=advanced&st=sr&ac=qr

Stupid prices at the moment though.

[Miss Prism]

Here's outside-bearinged 15'6" wb 1439 at Wolverhampton, probably toward the end of its life:

 

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-steam-locomotive-wolverhampton-mid-20th-cent-a-great-western-railway-47199589.html

 

and here's 1436 (enclosed cab):

 

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-steam-locomotive-wolverhampton-mid-20th-cent-a-great-western-railway-47199582.html

Edited July 22, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Edwardian]

 

1433–1444 (lot C2) were built with a 15' wb, but what 1434's wheelbase or tankwidth was like in 1927 I don't know. (I don't have access to my RCTS at the moment.)

 

For more confusion, read:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92797-george-armstrongs-masterpiece/

 

-

It is seldom that my 'pooter and RCTS vols are in the same room, but I find myself in that happy position this afternoon.

 

I cannot find the answer to the bunker query in RCTS.

 

1434 was one of those converted at Swindon to 15'6" between 1894 and 1915.  In the case of 1434,this was done in 1896. I note the engine was withdrawn in August 1928.

 

It was not one of those fitted with closed cabs by Churchward or known to have received a Collett one in 1924, though RCTS states that some of those not receiving Collett cabs, nevertheless, received Collett bunkers.

 

1434 presumably retained the half-cab fitted in the 1880s.

 

John - Persevere with the RCTS search.  I long despaired, but keep your eye out.  I did not have Six-Wheeled Tender Engines, Six-Coupled Tanks or Four-Coupled Tanks until this year.  The slip in the latter volume shows that I purchased it via Ebay in January for £10, generally what, through patience and persistence, I have paid for them.  No need to pay more.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Edwardian

[johnarcher]

Thanks for all replies - Edwardian for the RCTS stuff, and Miss Prism for the handbag, sorry,, pictures.

I hope 1434 was in the same condition as the picture of 1439 - I like that look. It seems quite likely.

Thanks Asmay for the link too, silly prices as you say, and me saving up for a 517 kit.

[Edwardian]

Although RCTS does not contain specific information on any bunkers fitted to 1434, we do know she was one of the 15' engines extended at Swindon.  This fact is significant because Swindon fitted a particular style of bunker on these extended locos.  Where no enclosed cab was provided by Churchward, this was the tall, straight-backed pattern with a concave scoop to the sides. 

 

A good illustration of this style is this picture of 1467 (converted to long w/b at Swindon, 1908):  https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0229/4449/products/016_cd1dee61-3e27-411f-8f40-12ace22ce542_1024x1024.jpg?v=1499013932

 

Unless 1434 received a Collett bunker c.1924,despite not being known to have received an enclosed cab, which is, I'm afraid, entirely possible, as per Miss P's earlier link (http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CMP3FH/steam-locomotive-wolverhampton-mid-20th-cent-a-great-western-railway-CMP3FH.jpg) (!), this straight-backed bunker is probably what she retained until withdrawal in 1928. 

 

Pictured on the Golden Valley in 1924 is class-mate No 845 (converted to long w/b at Swindon, 1902) on the level crossing at Abbeydore, still with this pattern bunker: http://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk/doc.php?d=rs_gdv_0011.

 

An unidentified loco on the branch train at Hay, captioned as "c.1930" (could it have been 1434, and taken 3 or so years earlier?) also shows this style: http://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk/doc.php?d=rs_gdv_0017

 

EDITED to fix link

Edited July 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[johnarcher]

Thanks again, I hope you didn't spend too much modelling time on that.

I hadn't considered the implications of her being converted at Swindon, but what you say makes sense (as usual).

I have been looking at the picture of 1434 with a magnifying glass, it is not clear but one can just see the front edge of the bunker, and it does look straight rather than curved away like a Collett one. I suspect it is the sort you mention, probably with the cut-out sheeted over as I recall seeing sometimes.

Incidentally if 1467 was converted to long wb then wouldn't one expect outside bearings?

 

Thanks again

[Miss Prism]

A good illustration of this style is this picture of 1467 (converted to long w/b at Swindon, 1908):  https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0229/4449/products/016_cd1dee61-3e27-411f-8f40-12ace22ce542_1024x1024.jpg?v=1499013932

 

That is a 15' wheelbase.

[Edwardian]

Thanks again, I hope you didn't spend too much modelling time on that.

I hadn't considered the implications of her being converted at Swindon, but what you say makes sense (as usual).

I have been looking at the picture of 1434 with a magnifying glass, it is not clear but one can just see the front edge of the bunker, and it does look straight rather than curved away like a Collett one. I suspect it is the sort you mention, probably with the cut-out sheeted over as I recall seeing sometimes.

Incidentally if 1467 was converted to long wb then wouldn't one expect outside bearings?

 

Thanks again

 

Well spotted.  I was focussing on the bunker, but you are quite right.

 

This appears to be a picture of 1467 before she was converted to 15'6".  The valancing/steps resemble the original configuration rather that either the usual Swindon or Wolverhampton 15'6" conversion.

 

She is pictured with, I would say, an R4 boiler, which she received in September 1904.  She still caries a polished brass dome.  Domes were ordered painted from 1908 (though not always adhered to) and, according to RCTS, her w/b was extended in March 1908.

 

I conclude that the picture probably represents her condition between September 1904 and March 1908, still as a 15' w/b engine.

 

So, the bunker she carries, what RCTS calls a Type 61, is the interesting feature.  It is stated in RCTS that "Type 61 was almost exclusively confined to 0-4-2Ts rebuilt at Swindon from 1884 to 1915".

 

Well, in the case of 1467, it seems that she went to Swindon for an R4 boiler in 1904 and came away with a Type 61 bunker but without her w/b extension, for which she had to wait until 1908.

 

It only goes to show ....!

[Miss Prism]

Nice Golden Valley pics, Edwardian. I had thought those type 61 bunkers didn't last much beyond 1926.

[johnarcher]

On the 1434 picture you can just see the horizontal front end of the beading that runs around the cut-out on the front of that type of bunker. So it does seem to be one of those, however there seems to be an edge above that beading, so I think it is the sort with the extra boxed-in bit above.

I can't find a picture of that sort online, howver it is shown in the old MRJ article where Guy Williams built 1468 from a Mitchell kit (though in that case with a closed cab).

I wonder if any two 517's were alike.

 

Thanks again for all the contributions.

Edited July 23, 2017 by johnarcher

[Miss Prism]

I wonder if any two 517's were alike.

 

They weren't.

 

517s had six different styles of Armstrong bunker, see http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobunkers.html  (which I need to redraw when I get a round tuit).

[johnarcher]

Thanks for that link, I assume it only covers Wolverhampton types, though their 3A looks like the type 61 under discussion which is Swindon?

The one I think 1434 has looks like 3E, but they suggest that only goes with a closed cab, but again maybe that's only in the case of Wolverhampton.

Edited July 23, 2017 by johnarcher

[Miss Prism]

Thanks for that link, I assume it only covers Wolverhampton types, though their 3A looks like the type 61 under discussion which is Swindon?

 

The 517s were built at Wolverhampton, but Swindon got involved with the bunker mods. (Please ignore the notation on the page, it needs to be updated to correspond with the RCTS classification, but yes, that page's '3A' is type 61.) 

 

The one I think 1434 has looks like 3E, but they suggest that only goes with a closed cab, but again maybe that's only in the case of Wolverhampton.

 

The '3E' was usually but not always associated with a closed cab, although I think the '3F' was used only with a closed cab.

[johnarcher]

Thanks again, I must search for a decent picture of a 3E with an open cab, which I am pretty sure is what 1434 has. I am ordering the two issues of GWRJ which had articles on the 517, maybe there will be something there.

[Edwardian]

Thanks again, I must search for a decent picture of a 3E with an open cab, which I am pretty sure is what 1434 has. I am ordering the two issues of GWRJ which had articles on the 517, maybe there will be something there.

 

3E is what is called Type 65 in RCTS.

 

I note at least one loco, 530, which remained 15', gained an enclosed cab with a Type 61, later filled to form a Type 65. 

 

In the meantime, the picture I should have linked earlier: Textbook (!) Swindon conversion to 15'6" with Type 61 bunker, no. 832: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0229/4449/products/832_29089e68-6ea2-4c91-b248-be4b0595708d_1024x1024.jpg?v=1499013932

 

I did wonder whether the loco at Hay might have been 1434, rather than 845.  It is hard to tell, but I had a fancy that might be a 4-didgit number plate, and look, could that be an open cab with a something similar to a Type 65 bunker, but with the infill sheeting not quite up to the top of the bunker?

 

http://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk/doc.php?d=rs_gdv_0017

Edited July 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[johnarcher]

I have thought that about the Hay picture, it looks like that to me too.

On the same page as 832 - there is 828 with a type 65 bunker (I think), with a cab, but it seems to show the start of a curved front sheet to the bunker infill, which then lies behind the cab rear. (I can't get a link to that picture to work).

Still searching for a type 65 (thanks for the number) with an open cab, probably quite rare.

Edited July 23, 2017 by johnarcher