Troop Trains - Coaches

[Seanem44]

Having trouble finding any information of troop coaches during WWII.

 

Would these just have been the coaches from every region requisitioned to move troops?  I know there were ambulance trains which had large crosses painted on them.  Does the same principle apply?  Or were there olive drab variants?

 

Any help or the pointing to a good resource would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[petethemole]

From the pictures I've seen over years of reading a lot of military and railway history, Troop trains were made up as required from Big Four company stock, supplied by the company where the train originated. The large numbers of coaches kept for summer traffic and excursions would have been available. First class for officers usually.

[Guest]

Peterthemole has it right; troop trains were made up of whatever was available. The Big Four companies (and BR in pre-Beeching days) kept substantial fleets of older main-line stock in reserve for summer Saturdays, football specials, etc. and these would have been first choice for wartime troop trains. On the Southern, 4-Cor electric multiple units were sometimes used for naval specials between Portsmouth and Chatham and suburban EMUs for Army specials between Waterloo and Aldershot.

 

The Dunkirk evacuation involved a major effort on the part of all four companies to supply locomotives and roling stock to the south-eastern ports to form troop specials to all parts of the UK mainland. A similar 'push' was needed for D-day but in this instance there was more time to plan ahead.

 

In addition, there were VIP specials for top brass that might include Pullmans and sleeping cars.

[Seanem44]

Peterthemole has it right; troop trains were made up of whatever was available. The Big Four companies (and BR in pre-Beeching days) kept substantial fleets of older main-line stock in reserve for summer Saturdays, football specials, etc. and these would have been first choice for wartime troop trains. On the Southern, 4-Cor electric multiple units were sometimes used for naval specials between Portsmouth and Chatham and suburban EMUs for Army specials between Waterloo and Aldershot.

 

The Dunkirk evacuation involved a major effort on the part of all four companies to supply locomotives and roling stock to the south-eastern ports to form troop specials to all parts of the UK mainland. A similar 'push' was needed for D-day but in this instance there was more time to plan ahead.

 

In addition, there were VIP specials for top brass that might include Pullmans and sleeping cars.

So then basically I can run any set of coaches I want, not even conforming to the usual train formations through creative license and an "anything available for the war effort" excuse it appears.

 

Thanks

[The Fatadder]

I have seen (on a WW2 colourised photo group on Facebook a few months ago) photos showing some of the GWR coaches used for collection of troops bought home from Dunkirk.  I cant recall the diagram (other than it was post toplight), both were finished in the double lined G W R over crest livery. 

[DCB]

There were some passenger service reductions fairly quickly after the outbreak of war which released stock in addition to the reserve stock kept for excursions.  The Dunkirk evacuations were improvised at short notice with more or less anything which could turn a wheel, but most troop movements were planned in advance. 

The difficulty for modelers is the stock used was unlikely to be the latest express stock but rather stock cascaded from first line service and this would be likely to be 20-40 years old so pre grouping eleptical roof rather than Clerestory and the only RTR I know of is the Hornby Gresleys, though the early LMS stuff looks the part.   Gresleys were also used on the Ambulance trains but I understand these were Air braked to be compatible with Continental stock and hauled by B12 locos rather than the local company's locos.  

A special originating at Catterick with some well weathered Gresley stock ought to be reasonably convincing for anywhere from Plymouth to Dover, to Stranraer or Wick, but not with an LNER engine much more than 50 miles from the LNER.

 

At least some Anglo Scottish sleeping car trains continued to run during the war, though not shown in the public timetable and "Service Personnel" only.

[eastglosmog]

There are 3 DVD compilations by Strike Force Entertainment called "Britain's Railways, The Home Front War Years" 1939-41, 1941-1943 and 1944-1945.  They contain many sequences of troop trains, which you may find helpful.

[TonyA]

Looking at contemporary books, The LMS at War describes the trains for Dunkirk. 

 

A common pool of railway coaching stock was created, to which the LMS contributed 44 trains out of a total of 186 concentrated for the purpose.

 

To me, this implies that there was no mixing of stock from different companies in the individual trains.

 

History of the British Railways during the War 1939-45 contains details of special trains for Headquarters Staff.

 

Alive and Rapier were predominantly formed of the assembling companies' stock with additions from other companies. Alive was assembled by the GWR but contained an LNER first class sleeper. Rapier was assembled by the LNER but contained two LMS CCTs.

 

Tony

[The Johnster]

By and large the stock would have been provided as has been stated by the company on which the movement originated, and presumably worked back loaded if possible, so the trains would normally consist of one company's stock, but might be seen in places that would have been unusual for them in peace time, Southern or GW rakes in the far north of Scotland for the Scapa Flow naval traffic for instance.  The locomotives would not have worked through most of the time.  Newsreel footage 'somewhere in England' is a useful source; taking photographs of troop movements during the war was a very quick way to get into very serious trouble with a potential rope on the end of it for treason.

[Derekl]

The troop train in the Quintinshill disaster originated in Larbert and was going "south" according to the accident report - I recollect it was en route to Liverpool, but could be wrong. The train was operated by the Caledonian and was made up of elderly Great Central passenger stock, with some non passenger CR stock at the rear. There has been criticism of the crashworthiness of the elderly coaches and of course, the gas lighting led to the fires. It appears that the stock was conventional if old. Query what GC stock was doing this far north, presumably taken up for the purposes of this train. The report is here: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Quin1915.pdf

[Guest]

A special category of wartime troop train would be an ambulance train. Formations varied but a fairly typical setup seems to be nine corridor parcels vans flanked by a pair of elderly Brake Thirds (some of the compartments were stripped and fitted with shelves for stores) and a restaurant car more or less in the middle of the formation to serve as a staff messroom.

The photos I have show Southern stock, I do not know whether other companies also supplied stock for this purpose.

[Fat Controller]

A special category of wartime troop train would be an ambulance train. Formations varied but a fairly typical setup seems to be nine corridor parcels vans flanked by a pair of elderly Brake Thirds (some of the compartments were stripped and fitted with shelves for stores) and a restaurant car more or less in the middle of the formation to serve as a staff messroom.

The photos I have show Southern stock, I do not know whether other companies also supplied stock for this purpose.

The GWR supplied several trains' worth of Siphon Gs. Some served as ward cars, whilst others were converted to phamacies. Most received roof vents, and kept these when returned to civilian use post war. The LMS had trains composed of ex-LNWR stock.