Anyone Interested in Ships

[MarkC]

4 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Good for you Mark for encouraging them. I wish there were more in fairly senior positions willing to give such encouragement to their junior colleagues.  

Though I fairly quickly realised it wasn't right for me I can see a seafaring  career as being a great one for many and a great shame that we no longer really have much of a merchant navy. I guess it was the first industry to be truly globalised with all the associated pros and cons. 

 

What I was always grateful to the two colleges for was that when I was giving myself the option of bailing out to do a University degree and working like stink in my second year at Plymouth to get a good enough OND but "skiving off" things like sports and meals in the residence to spend more time in the library and, at South Shields, disappearing for a day or so several times to attend University interviews they turned a blind eye. I'm sure there were always a few cadets each year who did the same because someone else from my OND course at Plymouth turned up on my engineering course at Sussex - though doing a different major. 

I'd not thrived at school so it was the colleges that gave me my alternative route into higher education that led me to my real vocation as a BBC (etc.) programme maker.  I think it was gratitude for that that led me to want to put something back by becoming an FE  college governor and eventually chair.

 I too was with Cayzer Irvine (British & Commonwealth 2&4 St. Mary Axe) though then they had Union Castle, Clan Line, Bowaters' paper ships (managed), and a couple of small tankers. In the 1980s they expanded massively into financial services but that led them into receivership in 1990. The last time I had any dealings with them was in 1980 when they formed Air UK from British Island Airways and Air Anglia which I did a story about for BBC South's regional news programme.    

 

  

Thanks for that, David - I was just doing the right thing - and it sounds as though you actually benefited from what you got out of your training.

 

Yes, Bowaters were part of the group too - and Hector Whaling.

 

Old man Cayzer had no sons, of course, and neither did his brother. He said, apparently, on the occasion of the end of the Union Castle mailboat service in 1977, that he'd be out of shipping in 10 years. It took 9 - the last ship, Scottish Eagle, went on 1st May 1986. I was there - the last Third Engineer...

 

I had a family tradition in the Company - my paternal grandfather was a Master with Clan Line during WW2 (and is mentioned in several books), his elder son, my uncle, was manager of the Manchester office, and his elder son, my cousin, got as far as Second Engineer.

 

Going back to South Shields - in December 1982, 120 of us finished our cadetship. All bar 5 were put on the beach immediately, 3 of the others got one trip with their company - I think it was Shell - and that left 2 of us - both B&C. The other lad was gone from B&C within 2 trips, & went ashore a couple of years later. That left me - one out of 120. Sobering thought.

 

Mark

 

 

[Pacific231G]

8 minutes ago, MarkC said:

 

Going back to South Shields - in December 1982, 120 of us finished our cadetship. All bar 5 were put on the beach immediately, 3 of the others got one trip with their company - I think it was Shell - and that left 2 of us - both B&C. The other lad was gone from B&C within 2 trips, & went ashore a couple of years later. That left me - one out of 120. Sobering thought.

 

That makes me feel old Mark. In December 1982 I'd been directing South Today and making programmes in Southampton for about three years after working in presentation in TV Centre for several years and, before that in BBC World Service (with a diabolical eight week duty cycle that made the 12-4 watch seem like luxury !)

Were the early 1980s a particularly difficult time in the UK shipping business- it would have been about then that I made "Those in Peril" ?

 

In the 1960s I'd had a choice of cadetship between B&C and Shell Tankers but figured that the latter would never give me much of a run ashore. I guess containerisation later did that to everyone. Traditional loading and unloading usually took a few days, except in Rotterdam where it took a few hours (and muggins had to stay aboard to man the gennies) or Liverpool where it took a few weeks!

 

1 in 120 are worse odds than getting into BBC production as a graduate was in the 1970s but at least, in those days, once you were in you were tolerably secure though never particularly well paid and the work was always very intense.  I wouldn't do it now as the TV industry has been completely casualised and about as reliable a career as acting or running a restaurant. It was an enjoyable career though and I met a lot of very interesting people. 

 

A curious aside. When I was being assessed by the BBC they checked my colour vision (fine) and my hearing and found that, for my age, I'd lost some of the upper frequencies. I couldn't have worked on Radio 3 (and didn't want to) but fortunately  World Service didn't broadcast anything beyond about 16KHz so I was fine.  I didn't go to loud concerts so I'm sure that came from working in ship's generator rooms without hearing protection.

[MarkC]

13 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

That makes me feel old Mark. In December 1982 I'd been directing South Today and making programmes in Southampton for about three years after working in presentation in TV Centre for several years and, before that in BBC World Service (with a diabolical eight week duty cycle that made the 12-4 watch seem like luxury !)

Were the early 1980s a particularly difficult time in the UK shipping business- it would have been about then that I made "Those in Peril" ?

 

In the 1960s I'd had a choice of cadetship between B&C and Shell Tankers but figured that the latter would never give me much of a run ashore. I guess containerisation later did that to everyone. Traditional loading and unloading usually took a few days, except in Rotterdam where it took a few hours (and muggins had to stay aboard to man the gennies) or Liverpool where it took a few weeks!

 

1 in 120 are worse odds than getting into BBC production as a graduate was in the 1970s but at least, in those days, once you were in you were tolerably secure though never particularly well paid and the work was always very intense.  I wouldn't do it now as the TV industry has been completely casualised and about as reliable a career as acting or running a restaurant. It was an enjoyable career though and I met a lot of very interesting people. 

 

A curious aside. When I was being assessed by the BBC they checked my colour vision (fine) and my hearing and found that, for my age, I'd lost some of the upper frequencies. I couldn't have worked on Radio 3 (and didn't want to) but fortunately  World Service didn't broadcast anything beyond about 16KHz so I was fine.  I didn't go to loud concerts so I'm sure that came from working in ship's generator rooms without hearing protection.

Sorry about that, David!

 

Aye, containerisation screwed everyone really - and the UK dockies hated it. Cost a lot of them their jobs, of course, then more lost their jobs thanks to strikes in protest - shipping companies simply went elsewhere.

 

Yes, engine rooms without hearing protection - not going to end well.

 

I insisted on having ear defenders right from the start - yet a few Chiefs & Seconds would take the mickey out of you for doing that. Not good.

 

Cheers

Mark

[MarkC]

@New Haven Neil

 

Going back to Mr Monkey in South Shields - it was actually GBP214K!!!

 

One link

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/south-tyneside-council-calls-hunt-7371954#

 

And the blog itself

https://mrmonkeysblog.wordpress.com/

 

And this was interesting too

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/taxpayers_shouldn_t_be_funding_south_tyneside_councillors_to_sue_twitter_and_catch_mr_monkey

 

I was so pleased that I had moved away - I would have been absolutely furious if my cash was going towards this

 

Mark

 

[Bon Accord]

I found this as a result of one of SWMBO's clearout diktats. In very good condition considering the age and abuse it will have had, alas the fit was far tighter than I remembered it to be, so it must have been exposed to some kind of shrink ray during it's many years in storage (ahem).

 

In a similar vein, how about this pinched from Geest-something. I can't imagine any shipping company - never mind one that carried passengers -providing such things today!

 

I didn't throw either out.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Bon Accord

[62613]

On 03/03/2023 at 22:23, MarkC said:

Here, it seems, Neil...

http://www.enginemuseum.org/doxford.html

 

It should really have either been saved somewhere in Sunderland or at Beamish, but there we go

 

Mark

I think it's it bits in store there; not assembled

[jjb1970]

I suspect only a minority of people ever went through their full career at sea. There was some initial drop out in phase one as a few decided it wasn't what they wanted or struggled with the academic work. The deck side always seemed much better structured to me in sending people to sea very quickly, rather than doing a year at college first and then going to sea with a year invested in getting half an OND. Some engineers usually seem to drop out in their sea year. Then more decide their HND is a good stepping stone into university, or leave for shore based employment. Then quite a few stay long enough to get a job in shore based ship management or another shore based position. And quite a lot of those who get their masters and chiefs leave mid-career.

 

I left the sea at 34 and have never had any second thoughts or ideas to go back. I enjoyed it and had a great time, but I decided it was time to move on and I've never regretted it. In some ways that was good because I left still liking life at sea and have happy memories, a lot of people get quite bitter and twisted and end up being painful company on-board. There's always been a tendency to look at life ashore with rose tinted glasses when on-board and it's perfectly normal to look forward to paying off, but it's also normal to get someone on-board who should probably seek medical help for depression, who sits feeling sorry for themself from joining day to pay off day (and then probably misses life on-board when they go home).

 

There are also some who end up institutionalized by spending too long with a company, that one is not unique to life at sea as it is the same with land based employment. I think Bon Accord and I have a mutual acquaintance who never recovered from his time with Ben Line, everything he uttered ended up returning to Ben Line and his time on the Ben something or other. I used to laugh, and wind him up, but at times it got annoying, he was also one of those who tended to whinge a lot (nice guy, but he could be hard work). 

[MarkC]

31 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I think it's it bits in store there; not assembled

It might well be - I don't know the museum - but at least it's not met the gas-axe.

 

Mark

[MarkC]

11 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I suspect only a minority of people ever went through their full career at sea. There was some initial drop out in phase one as a few decided it wasn't what they wanted or struggled with the academic work. The deck side always seemed much better structured to me in sending people to sea very quickly, rather than doing a year at college first and then going to sea with a year invested in getting half an OND. Some engineers usually seem to drop out in their sea year. Then more decide their HND is a good stepping stone into university, or leave for shore based employment. Then quite a few stay long enough to get a job in shore based ship management or another shore based position. And quite a lot of those who get their masters and chiefs leave mid-career.

 

I left the sea at 34 and have never had any second thoughts or ideas to go back. I enjoyed it and had a great time, but I decided it was time to move on and I've never regretted it. In some ways that was good because I left still liking life at sea and have happy memories, a lot of people get quite bitter and twisted and end up being painful company on-board. There's always been a tendency to look at life ashore with rose tinted glasses when on-board and it's perfectly normal to look forward to paying off, but it's also normal to get someone on-board who should probably seek medical help for depression, who sits feeling sorry for themself from joining day to pay off day (and then probably misses life on-board when they go home).

 

There are also some who end up institutionalized by spending too long with a company, that one is not unique to life at sea as it is the same with land based employment. I think Bon Accord and I have a mutual acquaintance who never recovered from his time with Ben Line, everything he uttered ended up returning to Ben Line and his time on the Ben something or other. I used to laugh, and wind him up, but at times it got annoying, he was also one of those who tended to whinge a lot (nice guy, but he could be hard work). 

Good points.

 

I too know a few people who should not have been at sea, for medical (as in mental health) issues.

 

Regarding going ashore; a few folk I know got a trip or two as Master or Chief, then swallowed the anchor because - and I quote - "Need to do it now before the wife gets used to the film star wages". Film star wages? I wish... but that's another story.

 

I know a few folk who worked on pretty much the same ship for many, many years. Nah - you need to move around. We (as in the top 4 - the so-called 'god squad' in earlier times) do two to 3 years on one ship here in Anthony Veder, then move. It keeps a chap interested & stops you from becoming stale.

 

Mark

[Pacific231G]

37 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I suspect only a minority of people ever went through their full career at sea. There was some initial drop out in phase one as a few decided it wasn't what they wanted or struggled with the academic work. The deck side always seemed much better structured to me in sending people to sea very quickly, rather than doing a year at college first and then going to sea with a year invested in getting half an OND. Some engineers usually seem to drop out in their sea year. Then more decide their HND is a good stepping stone into university, or leave for shore based employment. Then quite a few stay long enough to get a job in shore based ship management or another shore based position. And quite a lot of those who get their masters and chiefs leave mid-career.

 

I left the sea at 34 and have never had any second thoughts or ideas to go back. I enjoyed it and had a great time, but I decided it was time to move on and I've never regretted it. In some ways that was good because I left still liking life at sea and have happy memories, a lot of people get quite bitter and twisted and end up being painful company on-board. There's always been a tendency to look at life ashore with rose tinted glasses when on-board and it's perfectly normal to look forward to paying off, but it's also normal to get someone on-board who should probably seek medical help for depression, who sits feeling sorry for themself from joining day to pay off day (and then probably misses life on-board when they go home).

 

There are also some who end up institutionalized by spending too long with a company, that one is not unique to life at sea as it is the same with land based employment. I think Bon Accord and I have a mutual acquaintance who never recovered from his time with Ben Line, everything he uttered ended up returning to Ben Line and his time on the Ben something or other. I used to laugh, and wind him up, but at times it got annoying, he was also one of those who tended to whinge a lot (nice guy, but he could be hard work). 

It sometimes felt as if much of what we were learning was preparing us for a post sea career with the CEGB. 

It might have made sense perhaps to have given us a taster of life at sea first to find out if we were suited to it before investing heavily in our training though, in the engine room, we'd perhaps have been a danger to ourselves and anyone else. We did though spend the college vacations at sea and I think a few people dropped out before the second year of OND after doing that over the summer. I'm afraid it may have been my experience of Plymouth, rather than actually being at sea which I did find interesting, that turned me against the career and I've often wondered if things would have been different  had I gone to Shields for my OND.

 

For me it turned out well, better I'm sure than if I'd stayed at school, because, though I told myself I was working to get an OND good enough for university entry, just to give me options, I think the die was already pretty well cast and when I applied to Universities I knew exactly what I was lookig for. I was then surprised to find that some of them, including the one I most wanted which was Sussex, really wanted me to choose them, probably because they wanted a proportion of students with 'real world' experience. I was a bit older than most of my fellow students who'd come straight from school but, because I'd been employed for over three years my grant was assessed on my meager earnings as a cadet so I got a full one. 

 I thought I'd have difficulty keeping up with the bright kids with A levels but found I was well ahead of them. I was also used to being away from home working eight hours a day seven days a week  so didn't go mad with drink and drugs and, as well as getting my degree, discovered my real vocation in media production and was able- thanks to BBC Radio Brighton who had a weekly student programme-   to make time to learn the basic skills of radio. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Pacific231G

[jjb1970]

6 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

For me it turned out well, better I'm sure than if I'd stayed at school, because, though I told myself I was working to get a good OND just to give me options, I think the die was already pretty well cast and when I applied to Universities I was surprised to find that some of them, including the one I really wanted to go to which was Sussex, really wanted me to choose them, probably because they wanted a proportion of students who had 'real world' experience. I was a bit older than most of my fellow students who'd come straight from school but, because I'd been employed for over three years my grant was assessed on my meager earnings as a cadet so I got a full grant  

What did surprise me was that I thought I'd have difficulty keeping up with the bright kids with A levels whereas, in engineering subjects in particular, I was way ahead. I was also used to being away from home working eight hours a day seven days a week  so was able to make time to get into broadcasting (BBC local radio) as well as getting my degree.

 

I had a similar experience at university. I was worried that I'd be very rusty on the academic side and be the intake dunce, but not only did the theory come flowing back more quickly than I expected, being able to visualise what we were learning in terms of practical application was hugely helpful.

 

I went back to do an MSc as a very mature student because the university I studied with had an agreement with my employer and did joint research projects. That one was odd, because I'd been doing engine emissions test measurements and researched the subject in class, as well as participated in the regulatory development process at IMO I essentially codified my existing learning by getting the certificate to say I was educated to MSc level. I graduated with distinction and got an academic award for best thesis, in some ways I felt guilty as I started out with a huge advantage, but hey ho, I guess some of the advantages were offset by my being a bit of an old codger by that point.

[New Haven Neil]

Ah indeed - I went back to college/uni in my late 30's,  (HR degree) and once I learned how to write in the required style did well without too much grief, just a lot of old fashioned study.  A point of amusement was at the first full course meeting the 'crowd' thought I was the tutor....JJB's point about being the codger being only too true.  What I didn't foresee was the errr, romantic attraction of being a little older and more experienced in life, a good steady reasonably well paid job, and smart suits (NHS HR Adviser) would bring!  Unwanted, I may add, 39th wedding anniversary next week!

 

@MarkC I shan't enter my S-i-L's name, but....yeah.  Silly cow.  I wonder if the Monkey was who they thought he was.  

 

 

[MarkC]

14 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

Ah indeed - I went back to college/uni in my late 30's,  (HR degree) and once I learned how to write in the required style did well without too much grief, just a lot of old fashioned study.  A point of amusement was at the first full course meeting the 'crowd' thought I was the tutor....JJB's point about being the codger being only too true.  What I didn't foresee was the errr, romantic attraction of being a little older and more experienced in life, a good steady reasonably well paid job, and smart suits (NHS HR Adviser) would bring!  Unwanted, I may add, 39th wedding anniversary next week!

 

@MarkC I shan't enter my S-i-L's name, but....yeah.  Silly cow.  I wonder if the Monkey was who they thought he was.  

 

 

I was actually 18 when I started my cadetship - being 18 as opposed to 16, which the majority of my intake were, was quite marked. A couple of years of maturity definitely made a difference.

 

Would have been my 39th anniversary next month - had wife V1.0 not walked out on me in 2008... whilst I was away at sea... and yes, these days, Dear Johns are done by email...

Wife V2.0 is much better - it'll be 14 years on Wednesday since we first met...

 

As for Mr Monkey - I guess we'll never know now. It was most entertaining though, watching councillors running round like headless chickens - no doubt there was plenty of hamster bedding being produced, with shredders working overtime 😁

 

Mark

[KeithMacdonald]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I went back to do an MSc as a very mature student

 

Snap!

 

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I graduated with distinction and got an academic award for best thesis,

 

Well played sir!

 

Coincidently, I had a similar experience when I went back to Uni to get an MSc. I went in apprehensive that I was so much older that all the rest. Then found it delightfully easy, because I had practical knowledge to make everything meaningful and give it a firm foundation. Whereas a lot of the youngest students were only getting a theoretical knowledge and struggled to get to grips with it.

 

So "old greybeard" (me) earned lots of free drinks in the student union after classes, walking them through real world examples so they could make sense of it. 😀

It was a pleasure to see the light of comprehension come on in their eyes, instead of the dull blank look that had been there before.

And even more pleasure when they went and bought another round. 🥃

 

[KeithMacdonald]

29 minutes ago, MarkC said:

As for Mr Monkey - I guess we'll never know now. It was most entertaining though, watching councillors running round like headless chickens - no doubt there was plenty of hamster bedding being produced, with shredders working overtime

 

A close friend of mine had a similar experience down the road in Middlesborough, where (allegedly) councillors were busy outsourcing all the council-run services to private companies that just (and purely coincidently) happened to have spouses, relatives and close friends as directors.  I couldn't possibly comment.

[KeithMacdonald]

Oh dear! More dourness?
 

Quote

 

Ferry operator CalMac has warned the next two years will be "challenging" for residents of Scotland's islands due to the age of its fleet. Chief executive Robbie Drummond also apologised to residents of Arran for recent disruption to services. Mr Drummond said a shortage of spare vessels was also driving disruption. A third of CalMac's ferries are more than 30 years old, and almost half the largest ships are beyond their expected service life.

 

etc

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64853948

[MarkC]

3 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

A close friend of mine had a similar experience down the road in Middlesborough, where (allegedly) councillors were busy outsourcing all the council-run services to private companies that just (and purely coincidently) happened to have spouses, relatives and close friends as directors.  I couldn't possibly comment.

Funnily enough, the port I've just left gave me one of those "Uh huh" moments a few years ago. We had finished cargo, and were ready to sail, when the Agent came on board with a letter from the local Port State office, saying that we were arrested for departing with too much sludge in our holding tanks. This came as a shock to the Old Man and myself, as we knew that we were legal - but apparently there was a <local bylaw> with much lower limits...

 

In the next breath the Agent says that there's no real problem, as he had the phone number for a local receiver...

 

Much shouting from our Owners because of the delay, but what could we do?

 

Turned out that the receiver company was a one-man band operation, said man was the Agent's brother-in-law...

 

Mark

[jjb1970]

If the company wanted some harmless fun they could demand that the agent explain why they hadn't raised awareness of local regulations, given that's one of the reasons for retaining a local agent. The problem is if you get rid of them any replacement would be just as bad, and sometimes it really is better to live with the devil you know.

 

I remember when I was based in Abu Qir outside Alexandria for a while. The local Maersk agent (who was actually a Maersk employee heading up the offshore activities of their Alexandria office, not a third party service provider as is common in that line) was as corrupt as they came, lovely chap but he was scamming left right and centre and he had his finger in more pies (and tills) than I could count. And yet everything worked like clockwork and he had the Alexandria operation running like a sewing machine. This is something that many don't really get, they equate corrupt with inefficient or incompetent and various other nefarious attributes. Yet, a person can be very corrupt at the same time as being very competent and efficient, indeed to survive as a corrupt person generally requires a certain degree of competence to stay a step ahead and get away with it.

 

I found that was common in Egypt. It's one of the most corrupt countries out there, yet their important stuff tends to function pretty well. The Suez Canal is a prime example. Yes, everyone involved needs their percentage, they insist on stuff like carrying boatmen and all sorts of stuff which doesn't make much sense. And yet the canal works remarkably well, ships arrive, get their place in the convoy assigned and then go through, drop the pilot, boatmen, gillygilly man etc and head off into the sunset. 

[St Enodoc]

14 hours ago, MarkC said:

I know a few folk who worked on pretty much the same ship for many, many years. Nah - you need to move around. We (as in the top 4 - the so-called 'god squad' in earlier times) do two to 3 years on one ship here in Anthony Veder, then move. It keeps a chap interested & stops you from becoming stale.

Much the same in the rail industry, certainly when you were building your career. Three years or so in a role then promotion - nearly always to a different location and often to a different type of job too.

[MarkC]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

If the company wanted some harmless fun they could demand that the agent explain why they hadn't raised awareness of local regulations, given that's one of the reasons for retaining a local agent. The problem is if you get rid of them any replacement would be just as bad, and sometimes it really is better to live with the devil you know.

 

I remember when I was based in Abu Qir outside Alexandria for a while. The local Maersk agent (who was actually a Maersk employee heading up the offshore activities of their Alexandria office, not a third party service provider as is common in that line) was as corrupt as they came, lovely chap but he was scamming left right and centre and he had his finger in more pies (and tills) than I could count. And yet everything worked like clockwork and he had the Alexandria operation running like a sewing machine. This is something that many don't really get, they equate corrupt with inefficient or incompetent and various other nefarious attributes. Yet, a person can be very corrupt at the same time as being very competent and efficient, indeed to survive as a corrupt person generally requires a certain degree of competence to stay a step ahead and get away with it.

 

I found that was common in Egypt. It's one of the most corrupt countries out there, yet their important stuff tends to function pretty well. The Suez Canal is a prime example. Yes, everyone involved needs their percentage, they insist on stuff like carrying boatmen and all sorts of stuff which doesn't make much sense. And yet the canal works remarkably well, ships arrive, get their place in the convoy assigned and then go through, drop the pilot, boatmen, gillygilly man etc and head off into the sunset. 

Indeed so - better the devil you know. This was truly an example of, well, "Spanish practices"...

 

As for Egypt - yes, monkey business a go-go, for sure. The Marlboro Canal might be interesting the first time, but after a while it becomes a pain in the... Pilfering is rife - if it's not welded down or locked up VERY securely then it'll 'grow legs'. Mind you, compared to West Africa, Nigeria & Cote d'Ivoire in particular, the Egyptians are amateurs...

 

Mark

[jjb1970]

Spain annoys me in a maritime context. It's not all the dodgy goings on which aren't that bad compared to plenty of other countries, it's the way they go to IMO and start lecturing the world with this awfully sanctimonious holier-than-thou preachiness despite their own affairs being a bit of a sewer. We have already mentioned the 'Prestige' incident earlier in the thread in which the Spanish authorities acted with hopeless ineptitude and then scapegoated the master. That would have shamed any country, never mind one which clearly considers itself to exist on a higher level, empowered to point fingers at everyone else.

[jjb1970]

Stuff you couldn't make up:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-sees-giant-cargo-cranes-as-possible-chinese-spying-tools-887c4ade

 

Someone wake me up when we've passed peak China paranoia......

[MarkC]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Spain annoys me in a maritime context. It's not all the dodgy goings on which aren't that bad compared to plenty of other countries, it's the way they go to IMO and start lecturing the world with this awfully sanctimonious holier-than-thou preachiness despite their own affairs being a bit of a sewer. We have already mentioned the 'Prestige' incident earlier in the thread in which the Spanish authorities acted with hopeless ineptitude and then scapegoated the master. That would have shamed any country, never mind one which clearly considers itself to exist on a higher level, empowered to point fingers at everyone else.

Agree 100% with this 👍

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Stuff you couldn't make up:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-sees-giant-cargo-cranes-as-possible-chinese-spying-tools-887c4ade

 

Someone wake me up when we've passed peak China paranoia......

You might be in for a long wait...

[billbedford]

12 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Oh dear! More dourness?
 

etc

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64853948

It might be cheaper in the long run to ask the Faroese to come a build a few tunnels between the isles. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tunnels_of_the_Faroe_Islands