Industrial Locomotive costs

[Caledonian]

Just one of those idle thoughts that grewed...

 

In 1920 the Culter Paper Mills, outside Aberdeen purchased [new] a Peckett R2 0-4-0ST. At first sight there's nothing remarkable about this, but most industrial concerns in Scotland went to Barclays in Kilmarnock or one of the other Scottish builders. Why did the Culter Mills go all the way to Bristol?

 

The real question is whether there's any record of comparative pricing in relation to industrial locos. All else being equal why pick a Peckett rather than, say, a Barclay or a Hudswell ?

Edited August 2, 2017 by Caledonian

[Killian keane]

The loco might have been new in the sense that it was unused, but possibly it had been built under an order which subsequently fell through, causing Peckett to offer it for sale at a discount price

[Caledonian]

The Culter one was really cited by way of an example rather than a mystery. What I'm interested in, from a modelling perspective, is whether there was any sort of method to the madness of industrial locomotives. Were, for example, Pecketts regarded as cheap and cheerful, not as sturdy as some but perfectly adequate for shunting the works yard, while on the other hand a Barclay might be preferred for heavier work - cost coming into it only in as much as why pay more than you need to

[Nearholmer]

There were certainly cheap options in narrow gauge locos, in that Bagnall secured a good proportion of the market by a combination of quite tight standardisation, and use of a boiler with marine-type firebox, which was cheaper to make (the downside being that it was better for 'short burst' work than 'long slog').

 

Barclay had a reputation as a supplier of very rugged, "no frills", locos, and were also pretty tight with standardisation, Hunslet and MW likewise.

 

I think, although I may be wrong, that Peckett were slightly "frillier", and although they had standard classes, were more looked to as a bespoke builder.

 

None of the British builders came even close to Orenstein and Koppel on standardisation, and hence price, so that despite the extra cost of transport from Germany a sprinkling of their products came to Britain.

 

Another factor was availability, in that buyers sometimes needed a loco "tomorrow", so would take the nearest that was in stock or on very short order, Bagnall were again good at this, keeping a few nearly finished locos on hand, whereas some builders seem not to have.

 

Then there was the thriving secondhand market.

 

Altogether a bit like a modern small to medium sized firm deciding which vans or lorries to buy.

 

Price data are available, but need research from original sources or trawling through a lot of IRS magazine articles.

 

Interesting topic, and I'd love to hear others' thoughts.

 

Kevin

Edited August 2, 2017 by Nearholmer

[brack]

Many companies seemed to stay loyal to a builder, presumably the locos they'd had from them in the past having worked out well, and contacts with the right personnel (eg. The repeat orders of Kerr Stuart locos with bagnall despite the goodwill having gone to hunslets, many of the people went to bagnall).

[JeremyC]

I believe that Barclays were another company that built standard types for stock.

 

From 'The Wemyss Private Railway' by A.W.Brotchie

 

In 1932 the Wemyss Coal Company invited tenders for a new six coupled locomotive.

Quotes received included:

 

NB Loco Co £3,235 [The highest]

A. Barclay £3,085

Hawthorn Leslie £2,337 [The lowest]

 

Other quotes were received from Peckett and Hudswell Clarke, 

 

After negotiation Barclays reduced their price to £2,765 and they received the order, so while price was important it obviously wasn't the only factor. The Wemyss Company owned locomotives from various manufacturers so it wasn't a case of favouring Barclays either. 

 

It is interesting to note that when prices were sought in 1938 for another loco of the same type Barclay's price was £4,000 [actually £4,240 but reduced to £4,000 each if two were ordered] and in 1958 they quoted £20,100 for a similar locomotive.

Edited August 4, 2017 by JeremyC

[avonside1563]

Sometimes it came down to availability.Some manufacturers would part build locomotives to stock orders when they were quiet which meant they could give a short delivery date when someone wanted a locomotive delivered quickly. W.G. Bagnall were a proponent of this, 2221/1927 'Lewisham' (now preserved at the Foxfield Railway) being a case in point as the frames were laid down in 1922 along with a sister locomotive and work progressed as an infill job over the next few years until an order came in.

[Dava]

Peckett locos were not unknown in NE Scotland, for example the British Aluminium Co. Locos at Burntisland of similar age.There were others. Peckett were aye looking for buyers.

 

Dava

[Caledonian]

Many companies seemed to stay loyal to a builder, presumably the locos they'd had from them in the past having worked out well, and contacts with the right personnel (eg. The repeat orders of Kerr Stuart locos with bagnall despite the goodwill having gone to hunslets, many of the people went to bagnall).

 

Not to mention the fitters being used to them and having spare parts, which is why the original Peckett at Culter was eventually replaced by another one

[Caledonian]

Peckett locos were not unknown in NE Scotland, for example the British Aluminium Co. Locos at Burntisland of similar age.There were others. Peckett were aye looking for buyers.

 

Dava

 

I'd hardly call Burntisland [in Fife] the NE of Scotland 

[rockershovel]

Engineering supplies aren't simply specified by price, though.

 

A buyer might specify a loco of a given weight, power output and gauge, to work on a specified minimum radius. They might specify a working gradient, required train weight, line working speed and operating range/duration. They might look at previous experience, or quoted fuel/water consumption.

 

So the higher priced loco might be better suited to the required task, but that won't show in the comparison of purchase costs.

[Dava]

I'd hardly call Burntisland [in Fife] the NE of Scotland 

Fife is North of the Forth and on the East Coast so geographically it's NorthEast Scotland, there are of course areas such as yours and others much further North.

 

Dava

[Quarryscapes]

From time to time things like this crop up in books. This is summed up from the Elan valley Waterworks (Oakwood Press)

 

Engineer informs boss that the best locomotive suppliers available to tender at the moment (April 1894) are Hunslet, Manning Wardle and Peckett. Sends specification to each, quoted £1230 from Peckett, £1250 from Mannings and £1375 from Hunslet. Engineer urges board to accept tender from Mannings as they can deliver within weeks. 

 

Reply from board asses each tender, reckons the Hunslet is unsuitable owing to wheelbase and Side tank with inside motion design (all are 0-6-0s, the other two being ST). MW offer a jack and two injectors overt he competition. The board already have previous experience of Pecketts and consder the MWs better. 

 

The next two locomotives were obtained from Hunslet, tenders having been invited from Manning Wardle and Hunslet only. 

 

The next two locos went to Manning Wardle, again only they and Hunslet were approached.

 

The next two were to be another 0-6-0 and a smaller shunting engine. Hunslet and Manning Warlde both approached, and based on cost MW supplied the smaller 0-4-0 and Hunslet the 0-6-0. 

[EddieB]

Yes, it does appear that Peckett's had comparatively few repeat orders.

[Caledonian]

Fife is North of the Forth and on the East Coast so geographically it's NorthEast Scotland, there are of course areas such as yours and others much further North.

 

Dava

 

Alas no. Coming from Aberdeen [in the North East] and with a brother in Kirkcaldy [in Fife next door to Burtisland] I can assure you categorically that Fife is not part of the North East of Scotland.

 

But as to the real matter in hand, BAC is doubly unusual in that not only did they run Pecketts in Scotland but they had more than one.

[Caledonian]

Yes, it does appear that Peckett's had comparatively few repeat orders.

 

I don't know if that's necessarily true. As I mentioned above the Culter Paper Mills bought an R2 from new in 1920 and when it wore out they replaced it with a second-hand R4, so they obviously liked them. On the other hand, they do look as if they were purchased singly or in pairs but not in fleets.

[tomparryharry]

Possibly Barclay couldn't fulfil an order, and Peckett had one in stock just at the right time. In the 1900'-1930's, Barclay always had a locomotive in stock, such as 10 to 18" cylinder sizes. Other sizes were always 'on quote', so lead times would be short. 'Special' types tended to be longer.

 

Lucky for you that Hornby scanned a Peckett; it could easily be a Barclay!

 

Ian

[Nearholmer]

BAC had Pecketts at Larne, too, so maybe they had a good relationship with them ...... or a Director in common?

[Caledonian]

BAC had Pecketts at Larne, too, so maybe they had a good relationship with them ...... or a Director in common?

 

Yes, I'd be inclined to see that one as a company policy decision rather than a local one

[Caledonian]

Lucky for you that Hornby scanned a Peckett; it could easily be a Barclay!

 

Ian

 

Ah, but the one they scanned was a W4; the one I remember was an R4...

 

Barclay would have been good [and I live in hope] Barclay would have given me all sorts of options