How would pick up and drop off frieght be shunted

[Chris Dark]

Hi,

 

I have recently purchased my first property and naturally the 1st thing to do is get the ideas of a model railway floating about. I have a 16 x 8ft garage in which to play with and i like the idea of modeling Savernake Low Level, maybe with a few tweeks here and there...

 

I was hoping to get a dumbed down answer as to how shunting would take place for daily freights. train movements is something i am not too familiar with but instead of adding in more sidings and headshunts i would first like to understand how the real workings would of taken place (or as much as i can baring in mind i am only modeling the East side of the station...

 

I have attached my SCARM sketch which i always play with before building the final plan in Templot. This should give an idea of the layout. also is a link to the s-r-s East box.

 

Thanks

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S374.htm

 

[DCB]

A bit like asking "How long is a piece of string."

 

If you can find any old railwaymen ask them how they shunted but they are getting old and many of them simply didn't take much notice of the detail, the youngest WR steam firemen are now 74 remember, 18 in 1965, and many small stations and yards had closed by then anyway.

 

Adrian Vaughn's books give some insight into workings.

Edited August 23, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Pete the Elaner]

Hi,

 

I have recently purchased my first property and naturally the 1st thing to do is get the ideas of a model railway floating about.

Sounds like you are doing well.

I had plans for a nice continuous layout when I moved in, but the layout room stayed as a mess with bits of an end-to-end for years.

It took nearly 15 years to properly get moving with what I had planned, but it is getting there now.

[Fat Controller]

Don't forget that the real railway used some shunting practicises that would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to replicate:-

using the station horse, or a big crowbar, to move wagons.

a rope between wagon couplings and a loco on a parallel track.

gravity.

Some practices were frowned upon, but doubtless occured when there wasn't an Inspector or similar around; G F Fiennes told of a cable shunt on a pick-up freight in East Anglia. It was going well, until everyone forgot about the presence of a signal-post between the running lines (loco) and the siding (wagons); the wire rope they used brought the signal down.

Even in the 1980s, it was not unknown for the Tyne Yard- Blaydon pick-up to arrive at the latter with the loco sat between two sets of wagons; the front ones having been picked up at a scrap yard off the branch to Dunston Staithes that was difficult to shunt.

[The Johnster]

Good plan and the potential to be a really good model, Chris.  I would attempt to at least include the turnout and trap point of the refuge siding even if the siding itself trails back offscene into your fiddle yard at that end; it will increase the potential and of course be prototypical. 

 

DavidC's method of shunting the yard is entirely plausible, with of course traffic for other pick up/drop off points on the working being left in the refuge while the action takes place.  The main marshalling yard servicing the area, in this case Reading, will have already formed the train in station order to minimise work at the stations, not to save the crew and guard's effort but to reduce the amount of time that route was blocked by shunting.  At a location of this sort, I would even then expect the shunting pick up to have to cease it's work every so often and retreat off the running lines, or stand over on one of them, while through traffic is handled; this may be booked in the working timetable or arranged ad hoc by the signalman.

 

The pickup, if it servicing stations further down as well, will of course be returning later with some of the same wagons it went out with, including anything picked up here.  Also, bear in mind that the pickup loco will be used to reposition wagons on site, without necessarily taking them away that day, which will generate extra moves occasionally.

 

The sort of operation referred to by Brian would be covered in the Sectional Appendix (to the Rule Book), and if you can obtain one of these for the area it will contain all sorts of very interesting information, including what locos were banned from which sidings, signalbox opening times, and any local practices such as propelling if they apply to Savernake.

[The Bigbee Line]

I think the shunting practices Brian refers to will definitely not be in the Sectional Appendix, maybe in a Form 1 if someone gets caught, or more likely if it goes wrong....

 

In the early 80's an Ashford driver was relating that in the steam days they left Ashford with the pick up good for the Maidstone line.  Behind the loco was a box van with parcels and non wagon loads, this was unloaded on the platform by station staff.  The train crew and the shunters would shunt the rest of the wagons between the passenger traffic.   The stations then were Hothfield, Charing, Lenham etc.  He said on most days it took so long that they would get relieved before leaving Charing...

 

As to the trains being marshalled to assist in shunting during the journey...  Ask any shunter what they mean by a 'football scarf'  that's is a train that has the wagons all mixed up.  The other name was BMS = Best Mixed S**t....

Edited August 19, 2017 by The Bigbee Line

[DCB]

Savernake (East) was a unique place where you would find a Manor or 43xx or Southern U class mogul stopping at the platform on a three train coach train and then a couple of hours later a Kings hauled 13 coach Cornish Riviera Express would rush through non stop as some of the MSWJR Cheltenham - Southampton passenger service and the GWR crack Paddington - Devon and Cornwall express services all used the station.

 

In fact the ratio of non stop Express Passenger trains to Pick Up Goods would be about 6 expresses to one pick up and probably a dozen through freights to one pick up, however then as now many through freights ran at night. (Which is why I for one don't model many of them.) There was not much mineral or through coal traffic on the Berks and Hants, it went Swindon -Reading on the original GW main line.   Equally Tank engines would probably have been quite rare at Savernake East though Swindon based 45XX operated from Savernake West to Marlborough. A Ratio of 10 Kings or 20 Castles or Halls to 1 tank engine, is probably about right.  ( Incidentally all the 20 or so Plymouth and Old Oak based Kings passed through while only the 2 Gloucester based Manors were normally seen there.) 

 

Getting even further off topic, Swindon, Gloucester, Eastleigh, Old Oak, (Southall?) and Plymouth sheds definitely had duties through Marlborough, Probably Newton Abbott, Reading and Westbury maybe Taunton and Exeter as well so the variety of locos was pretty extensive even though the number of trains was comparitively small compared to the Reading - Didcot main line.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Chris Dark]

Thanks David and all for the comments, much appreciated.

 

I guess a point I didn't think of was that most shunting would taken place at the larger stations. Something I am aware of just didn't think about. Savernake has a rural location which I want from a modelling side and a mix of trains for operational interests. I was thinking of the extra siding just to give a bit more to look at and play with although as you rightly point out its facing which is why I didn't draw it in properly. The idea of including the refuge siding on the down side I do like, although mainly off scene it will help with operational interests.

 

Although I will treat this as a model railway rather than an exact replica of a place or time I do love to understand how an area was worked so that I can be as prototypical as I can be within the constraints.

 

I have read about trains that terminated at Savernake, does anyone have knowledge of that?

 

Also where was the gradient at Savernake? Would it appear in the area I am looking at?

 

Thanks again for all your comments

[The Johnster]

I think the shunting practices Brian refers to will definitely not be in the Sectional Appendix, maybe in a Form 1 if someone gets caught, or more likely if it goes wrong....

 

In the early 80's an Ashford driver was relating that in the steam days they left Ashford with the pick up good for the Maidstone line.  Behind the loco was a box van with parcels and non wagon loads, this was unloaded on the platform by station staff.  The train crew and the shunters would shunt the rest of the wagons between the passenger traffic.   The stations then were Hothfield, Charing, Lenham etc.  He said on most days it took so long that they would get relieved before leaving Charing...

 

As to the trains being marshalled to assist in shunting during the journey...  Ask any shunter what they mean by a 'football scarf'  that's is a train that has the wagons all mixed up.  The other name was BMS = Best Mixed S**t....

 

I meant such matters as propelling, with or without brake vans right or wrong road, which would be authorised by the Sectional Appendix.  Some of the other practices were highly dodgy and would get you a Form 1 if you survived...

[Chris Dark]

I meant such matters as propelling, with or without brake vans right or wrong road, which would be authorised by the Sectional Appendix.  Some of the other practices were highly dodgy and would get you a Form 1 if you survived...

Maybe more worryingly...... What's a form 1? I presume some kind of disciplinary?

[The Johnster]

Form 1, otherwise known as 'Please explain', yes, formal disciplinary procedure.  The second most serious level of discipline after instant summary dismissal, you were allowed 2 of them and summarily dismissed on the 3rd, 3 strikes and out, no ifs no buts.  A very serious black mark on your record.

 

I had one, but it was withdrawn after my explanation of the situation.  When you'd had two, people tended to eye up your locker if it was in a good position, and few survived after that, having already established an unacceptable pattern of behaviour.  

[chrisf]

I have read about trains that terminated at Savernake, does anyone have knowledge of that?

 

 

Not so much knowledge as copies of helpful documents!

 

Some trains terminated from the north off the MSWJ line.  In the 1957-58 timetable they were formed of a B set and, IIRC from published photographs, were powered by a pannier.  There were seven terminating trains.  On Mondays to Fridays they were all worked by the same set which started its day at Andover Junction and finished at Swindon Junction.  On Saturdays two sets were used, changing over at lunchtime.  A Siphon G for milk traffic was conveyed to and from Marlborough.  The loaded van was attached to the B set from Marlborough to Savernake and all the way to Swindon whee it was attached to a London bound train.

 

There were also some terminating trains on the main line.  The 4.45 pm Reading to Savernake and 6.20 pm return were formed of a London Q set [bS-S-C-S-BS] which by 1961 had been replaced by a 3-car dmu.  The 9.20 pm Reading to Savernake and 10.45 pm return were worked by a GW diesel railcar.  By 1961 this had also been replaced by a 3 car dmu.

 

HTH

 

Chris

 

EDIT - I have no idea whether freight trains terminated at Savernake!  I forgot the topic name when posting the above.

Edited August 22, 2017 by chrisf

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to rain on one parade but the serving  yard for Savernake freight traffic was Westbury thus it would have basically been shunted by an Up train  (in 1938 for example the booked trips were the 05.00 Westbury - Ludgershall (which did not call on its return working) and the 17.05 Holt Junction - Newbury.  Because of the steep gradients either side of Savernake various special arrangements had to be applied and there were also refuge sidings uin each direction which allowed the trains to be reversed in clear of the Main lines and, even more importantly, clear of the gradients if they were too long to be shunted on the level.

 

In addition one evening Down freight (18.25  Didcot - Westbury) was booked to recess and shunt at Savernake plus a later train which was allowed to call if required but had no time allowed to do so.  These would have been used to collect any westbound traffic which had not been cleared via Newbury by the evening booked freight trip.

 

So - bearing in mind those nasty gradients - and the consequent need to exercise great care when shunting which meant shunts could not be made back onto them (with an exception mentioned below) the arriving train would be reversed into the refuge siding if it was too long t be dealt with on the short level section and any detachments would be made - logically - off the front of the train to the various sidings on the Up side.  So no need for any fancy manoeuvres - the engine would always be at the open (east) end and could equally, if necessary in the evening shunt, any Down road wagons across to the short loop on the Down side at the east end where the 18.25 Didcot could pick them up.  First rule of shunting - keep the job as simple as possible.

 

The oddity at Savernake was servicing Burbage Wharf siding which lay to the west, down the steep gradient, and trains were authorised to set back in the section to shunt the siding with special attention in respect of securing brakes - including using sprags as well as handbrakes.

 

So coming back to your model the first part of it all becomes extremely easy.  The Up trips in the morning and evening would simply come on scene from the left as an engine with a handful of wagons - no need for all the train or the brakevan as they would be sitting in the Up Refuge siding off scene - unless you happen to have a nice short train.  Most likely - unless the sidings were full - the morning trip would only set down wagons; equally the afternoon trip would most likely only be picking up and possibly shunting the odd wagon or two across to the short loop on the Down side.  In both cases the engine, with any wagons attached, would simply drop back off scene to the left (running in the wrong direction on the Up Line) to rejoin its train which would subsequently appear from the left and run away to the right and off scene. 

 

The evening Down train could be quite interesting although here the tunnel on your sketchwould best be some sort of disguised approach to replicate the real place.  First the train appears from the right then sets back (in theory into the Down Refuge Siding then the engine reappears and runs past the short loop dropping back into that loop to collect the waiting wagons then back out onto the Main and disappear off scene to the right propelling teh newly attached wagons.  Subsequently the train reappears from the right and passes through the visible scene and away.  There you have it - original savernake freight working replicated in miniature.

 

P.S. Reference Chris's comment The 1938 Service TT shows no freught trains terminating at or starting from Savernake (I can check the 1947 as well  book if you wish)

 

P.P.S  I forgot to mention the gradients - distinctly nasty albeit not in the Dainton league.  At the east end the gradient was (is) 1 in 106 rising from the east to Savernake East Signalbox while at the other end it was/is 1 in 132 rising from the west to almost immediately in front of Savernake West Signalbox.  the gradients are still there although they've possibly changed a little and the one at the west end is far more noticeable than the one at the east end for some reason - probably the lie of the surrounding land plus it has a distinct impact on train performance coming up the bank with a 5,000 ton stone train.  So the bit you are modelling would be level as far as the east end points out of that short loop siding then it would fall to the right.

Edited August 22, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

Form 1, otherwise known as 'Please explain', yes, formal disciplinary procedure.  The second most serious level of discipline after instant summary dismissal, you were allowed 2 of them and summarily dismissed on the 3rd, 3 strikes and out, no ifs no buts.  A very serious black mark on your record.

 

I had one, but it was withdrawn after my explanation of the situation.  When you'd had two, people tended to eye up your locker if it was in a good position, and few survived after that, having already established an unacceptable pattern of behaviour.  

Form 1 was not a 'please explain' - it was the charge sheet (hence its official title Disciplinary Form (DP) No.1) in which it was stated that you had been a naughty boy in whatever particular manner.  The next stage - in the vast majority of cases - was a hearing and if found guilty you would be advised of the punishment on Form DP 2 and if there w as no appeal the punishment would then be carried out.

 

No question of 'totting up' various levels of punishment to get to a dismissal or whatever  - it was officially discouraged (except sometimes in relation to absenteeism or lead swinging sickness) and the idea was that the punishment should fit the 'crime'.  Hence dismissal could be awarded for a 'first offence' if it was considered sufficiently serious as could 'suspension (from duty) without pay'.  Summary Dismissal was exactly what it said - no need to go through the formal procedure you simply became judge, jury, and executioner and summarily dismissed the miscreant by a letter telling him so, but there was still a right of appeal.  I normally didn't mess about - it was either suitable warnings - without going into formal discipline but jus a good rollicking and a suitable letter (than almost invariably did the trick with anyone with at least half a brain) or Summary Dismissal - delivered as immediate suspension from duty and report tomorrow morning (at which time the letter of dismissal would be handed over).  However in one case I had to amend the procedure as I was quite sure that as he was in for Armed Robbery Wormwood Scrubs were hardly likely to send me one of my Guards after I'd written to tell him that he was dismissed as a result of his long term unexplained (by him) absenteeism - they hadn't let him put to come to work either.

Edited August 22, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[DCB]

 

Sorry to rain on one parade but the serving  yard for Savernake freight traffic was Westbury thus it would have basically been shunted by an Up train  (in 1938 for example the booked trips were the 05.00 Westbury - Ludgershall (which did not call on its return working) and the 17.05 Holt Junction - Newbury.  Because of the steep gradients either side of Savernake various special arrangements had to be applied and there were also refuge sidings uin each direction which allowed the trains to be reversed in clear of the Main lines and, even more importantly, clear of the gradients if they were too long to be shunted on the level.

 

The terminating passengers were Marlborough Branch workings mainly just running to Marlborough and back most of the photos I have seen show a 4575 on these duties.

 

The District Controllers View MSWJR No11 (Express Publications) lists the Marlborough - Savernake west shuttle as a 45XX duty no SW 77 in 1955.

 

I'm now wondering if there were there any pick up freights between Savernake West and Marlborough serving Marlborough, or did they all go via Savernake High Level working out of Swindon.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[chrisf]

The terminating passengers were Marlborough Branch workings mainly just running to Marlborough and back most of the photos show a 4575 on these duties.

 

David, I'm sure you are right.  I had in mind a set of photos in Trains Illustrated which showed a train in the bay at Savernake as an N came off the branch and without trying to find the issue in question [which I may do tomorrow] I am as sure as I can be that the train in the bay has a pannier on it.  Watch this space.

 

Chris

[Chris Dark]

Sorry to rain on one parade but the serving  yard for Savernake freight traffic was Westbury thus it would have basically been shunted by an Up train  (in 1938 for example the booked trips were the 05.00 Westbury - Ludgershall (which did not call on its return working) and the 17.05 Holt Junction - Newbury.  Because of the steep gradients either side of Savernake various special arrangements had to be applied and there were also refuge sidings uin each direction which allowed the trains to be reversed in clear of the Main lines and, even more importantly, clear of the gradients if they were too long to be shunted on the level.

 

In addition one evening Down freight (18.25  Didcot - Westbury) was booked to recess and shunt at Savernake plus a later train which was allowed to call if required but had no time allowed to do so.  These would have been used to collect any westbound traffic which had not been cleared via Newbury by the evening booked freight trip.

 

So - bearing in mind those nasty gradients - and the consequent need to exercise great care when shunting which meant shunts could not be made back onto them (with an exception mentioned below) the arriving train would be reversed into the refuge siding if it was too long t be dealt with on the short level section and any detachments would be made - logically - off the front of the train to the various sidings on the Up side.  So no need for any fancy manoeuvres - the engine would always be at the open (east) end and could equally, if necessary in the evening shunt, any Down road wagons across to the short loop on the Down side at the east end where the 18.25 Didcot could pick them up.  First rule of shunting - keep the job as simple as possible.

 

The oddity at Savernake was servicing Burbage Wharf siding which lay to the west, down the steep gradient, and trains were authorised to set back in the section to shunt the siding with special attention in respect of securing brakes - including using sprags as well as handbrakes.

 

So coming back to your model the first part of it all becomes extremely easy.  The Up trips in the morning and evening would simply come on scene from the left as an engine with a handful of wagons - no need for all the train or the brakevan as they would be sitting in the Up Refuge siding off scene - unless you happen to have a nice short train.  Most likely - unless the sidings were full - the morning trip would only set down wagons; equally the afternoon trip would most likely only be picking up and possibly shunting the odd wagon or two across to the short loop on the Down side.  In both cases the engine, with any wagons attached, would simply drop back off scene to the left (running in the wrong direction on the Up Line) to rejoin its train which would subsequently appear from the left and run away to the right and off scene. 

 

 

The evening Down train could be quite interesting although here the tunnel on your sketchwould best be some sort of disguised approach to replicate the real place.  First the train appears from the right then sets back (in theory into the Down Refuge Siding then the engine reappears and runs past the short loop dropping back into that loop to collect the waiting wagons then back out onto the Main and disappear off scene to the right propelling teh newly attached wagons.  Subsequently the train reappears from the right and passes through the visible scene and away.  There you have it - original savernake freight working replicated in miniature.

 

P.S. Reference Chris's comment The 1938 Service TT shows no freught trains terminating at or starting from Savernake (I can check the 1947 as well  book if you wish)

 

P.P.S  I forgot to mention the gradients - distinctly nasty albeit not in the Dainton league.  At the east end the gradient was (is) 1 in 106 rising from the east to Savernake East Signalbox while at the other end it was/is 1 in 132 rising from the west to almost immediately in front of Savernake West Signalbox.  the gradients are still there although they've possibly changed a little and the one at the west end is far more noticeable than the one at the east end for some reason - probably the lie of the surrounding land plus it has a distinct impact on train performance coming up the bank with a 5,000 ton stone train.  So the bit you are modelling would be level as far as the east end points out of that short loop siding then it would fall to the right.

 

Hi mike, thanks for your informative post. Quite a lot of information to take in but all very helpful.

A question I have is you don't make too much reference to the yard sidings for picking up and dropping off, this seems to be done in the loop on the down side. Have I got this correct or have I missed something? From what I gather even up trains picking up reverse into the down loop to pick up?

 

The term 'set down' is that the correct term for dropping off that I gave been using?

 

As usual with layouts in 00 space is a premium. If I amended the signalling slightly from the real thing, could I use my up station to leave the train whilst I picked up from the down loop? Just thinking it might add a bit more visual interest?

 

I will respond with a few posts to other comments or I will confuse myself even more .........

[Chris Dark]

The terminating passengers were Marlborough Branch workings mainly just running to Marlborough and back most of the photos show a 4575 on these duties.

 

I'm now wondering if there were there any freights between Savernake West and Marlborough, or did they all go via Savernake High Level working out of Swindon.

 

On a website which name escapes me currently it mentiones trains from the east terminating and heading back, sometimes backing into the down loop or refuge (I presume) before carrying out its manoeuvre. Another interesting aspect of this station........

[TheSignalEngineer]

The terminating passengers were Marlborough Branch workings mainly just running to Marlborough and back most of the photos show a 4575 on these duties.

 

I'm now wondering if there were there any freights between Savernake West and Marlborough, or did they all go via Savernake High Level working out of Swindon.  

 

 

David, I'm sure you are right.  I had in mind a set of photos in Trains Illustrated which showed a train in the bay at Savernake as an N came off the branch and without trying to find the issue in question [which I may do tomorrow] I am as sure as I can be that the train in the bay has a pannier on it.  Watch this space.

 

Chris

A picture of a 45xx on this page

http://www.burbage-wiltshire.co.uk/historic/railhist1.htm

[The Stationmaster]

On a website which name escapes me currently it mentiones trains from the east terminating and heading back, sometimes backing into the down loop or refuge (I presume) before carrying out its manoeuvre. Another interesting aspect of this station........

 

There were several passenger trains from the Newbury direction - certainly in the 1938 timetable (and I'm fairly sure in subsequent years) which terminated at Savernake and the returned eastwards).  Effectively in later years these were the origin of the service from the Reading/Newbury direction which terminated at Bedwyn (and then restarted eastwards, and still runs of course) although overall the situation was rather more complicated that that due to some running through to Devizes.

 

Hi mike, thanks for your informative post. Quite a lot of information to take in but all very helpful.

A question I have is you don't make too much reference to the yard sidings for picking up and dropping off, this seems to be done in the loop on the down side. Have I got this correct or have I missed something? From what I gather even up trains picking up reverse into the down loop to pick up?

 

The term 'set down' is that the correct term for dropping off that I gave been using?

 

As usual with layouts in 00 space is a premium. If I amended the signalling slightly from the real thing, could I use my up station to leave the train whilst I picked up from the down loop? Just thinking it might add a bit more visual interest?

 

I will respond with a few posts to other comments or I will confuse myself even more .........

 

Sorry if it wasn't completely clear Chris.  The two Up direction trips would set traffic down in the goods sidings on the Up side/pick up outwards traffic and empties from those sidings.  Because the short looped siding on the Down side had no road access from what I can tell of the topography from later years (confirmed by early 25 inch OS maps which place it at the foot of the cutting slope as do various photos on the 'net) it probably wouldn't have been used to drop off traffic as the only means of getting traffic across to the two sidings on the Up side would have been the trip engines and in any case it would have made far more sense to leave any surplus traffic either in the short Up side siding at Savernake West (which was definitely used for some traffic vehicles according to a published photo)  or, even better, at Westbury.  The key point is that, as I explained, Savernake was really served by the two Up trains which is logical as the goods facilities were on the Up side and it was the simplest way to set down and pick up wagons.

 

There would have been little point in shunting to or from that short looped siding on the Down side unless there was perhaps something special going on and the extra space it provided (for about 10-12  wagons by the look of it in photos) was going to be used and in any case it was quite possibly used to reverse short mainline passenger trains.  Judging by photos the two goods sidings would have been able to hold a total of c.10 wagons and in the real world that was more than sufficient as traffic was very limited - in 1933 there was less than 550 tons of received freight traffic (with remarkably little coal class traffic) but 74 wagons of cattle were dealt with in the course of that year.  You can of course vary your traffic levels to suit whatever you want in your miniature world  And 'dropping off' is probably just as good in the vernacular as set down (although the latter was the term used in most official publications).

 

The only normal use I can see for that short loop siding would have been if there was any traffic for a Down train that the trip couldn't take via Newbury and which the afternoon trip engine would therefore shunt across to the short loop with the wagons left there for the evening Down service, which was booked to recess in any case, to pick up.  But there was never much outwards (forwarded) freight traffic from the real Savernake and I doubt that train would necessarily drop any traffic as it called at Westbury in any case which was the serving yard for Savernake.   You might possibly envisage it as carrying urgent traffic for Savernake but unless the engine of the Down train spent time shunting it across it wasn't really going to get to Savernake any earlier than it would running via Westbury.  But you can of course completely re-write things to suit your model world although don't overlook the fact that the railway normally did jobs like this in the simplest way and didn't over-complicate things on purpose.t

 

I'm not really sure about your comment on the signalling as the layout at Savernake East looks to have been quite flexibly signalled in a way which allowed just about any short of legitimate movement between the two running lines and the sidings.   

 

Hope that helps a bit more.

[Chris Dark]

There were several passenger trains from the Newbury direction - certainly in the 1938 timetable (and I'm fairly sure in subsequent years) which terminated at Savernake and the returned eastwards).  Effectively in later years these were the origin of the service from the Reading/Newbury direction which terminated at Bedwyn (and then restarted eastwards, and still runs of course) although overall the situation was rather more complicated that that due to some running through to Devizes.

 

 

Sorry if it wasn't completely clear Chris.  The two Up direction trips would set traffic down in the goods sidings on the Up side/pick up outwards traffic and empties from those sidings.  Because the short looped siding on the Down side had no road access from what I can tell of the topography from later years (confirmed by early 25 inch OS maps which place it at the foot of the cutting slope as do various photos on the 'net) it probably wouldn't have been used to drop off traffic as the only means of getting traffic across to the two sidings on the Up side would have been the trip engines and in any case it would have made far more sense to leave any surplus traffic either in the short Up side siding at Savernake West (which was definitely used for some traffic vehicles according to a published photo)  or, even better, at Westbury.  The key point is that, as I explained, Savernake was really served by the two Up trains which is logical as the goods facilities were on the Up side and it was the simplest way to set down and pick up wagons.

 

There would have been little point in shunting to or from that short looped siding on the Down side unless there was perhaps something special going on and the extra space it provided (for about 10-12  wagons by the look of it in photos) was going to be used and in any case it was quite possibly used to reverse short mainline passenger trains.  Judging by photos the two goods sidings would have been able to hold a total of c.10 wagons and in the real world that was more than sufficient as traffic was very limited - in 1933 there was less than 550 tons of received freight traffic (with remarkably little coal class traffic) but 74 wagons of cattle were dealt with in the course of that year.  You can of course vary your traffic levels to suit whatever you want in your miniature world  And 'dropping off' is probably just as good in the vernacular as set down (although the latter was the term used in most official publications).

 

The only normal use I can see for that short loop siding would have been if there was any traffic for a Down train that the trip couldn't take via Newbury and which the afternoon trip engine would therefore shunt across to the short loop with the wagons left there for the evening Down service, which was booked to recess in any case, to pick up.  But there was never much outwards (forwarded) freight traffic from the real Savernake and I doubt that train would necessarily drop any traffic as it called at Westbury in any case which was the serving yard for Savernake.   You might possibly envisage it as carrying urgent traffic for Savernake but unless the engine of the Down train spent time shunting it across it wasn't really going to get to Savernake any earlier than it would running via Westbury.  But you can of course completely re-write things to suit your model world although don't overlook the fact that the railway normally did jobs like this in the simplest way and didn't over-complicate things on purpose.t

 

I'm not really sure about your comment on the signalling as the layout at Savernake East looks to have been quite flexibly signalled in a way which allowed just about any short of legitimate movement between the two running lines and the sidings.   

 

Hope that helps a bit more.

 

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks once again for your time in explaining this to me.

 

In a nutshell from what I am understanding is the two UP workings did the majority (if not all) of the goods traffic. Whether it was picking up or setting down as it made logical sense with the locations of the sidings etc. If any shunting was taking place on the UP side, depending on the timetable, would the shunting loco/train move to the down line or even the loop to vacate the UP line or is this me over complicating the station and it's requirements?

 

In terms of the Down trains, in regards of operational interest my two prototypical movements are either a straight through non stop, or set back into the Down sidings, pick up shunted goods in the loop, set back onto it's train and off it goes again? Sorry if I am slow picking this up, I find it really interesting how things were worked and the reasons behind everything (There is always a reason)

 

 

Regarding the DOWN loop. Do you have any links to the images or publications. I have found a few images of the area but none that really show the loop. I had seen the map images and following on from these discussions think I will shorten my loop (which from memory is around 1400mm in length) and include as much as the Down siding as possible.

 

Thanks again

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks once again for your time in explaining this to me.

 

In a nutshell from what I am understanding is the two UP workings did the majority (if not all) of the goods traffic. Whether it was picking up or setting down as it made logical sense with the locations of the sidings etc. If any shunting was taking place on the UP side, depending on the timetable, would the shunting loco/train move to the down line or even the loop to vacate the UP line or is this me over complicating the station and it's requirements?

 

In terms of the Down trains, in regards of operational interest my two prototypical movements are either a straight through non stop, or set back into the Down sidings, pick up shunted goods in the loop, set back onto it's train and off it goes again? Sorry if I am slow picking this up, I find it really interesting how things were worked and the reasons behind everything (There is always a reason)

 

 

Regarding the DOWN loop. Do you have any links to the images or publications. I have found a few images of the area but none that really show the loop. I had seen the map images and following on from these discussions think I will shorten my loop (which from memory is around 1400mm in length) and include as much as the Down siding as possible.

 

Thanks again

 

Chris I have found a couple of pictures which show the 'loop' but only one which shows the whole length of it and then in the background - which led me to estimate its capacity.   On the 1905 25 inch OS map it is about one third of the length of the Down Refuge siding.  It was clearly not regarded as anything more than a siding which would be used solely for wagons etc needing to be crossed from one side of the layout to the other but left for subsequent collection by a later train hence the way in which I consider it would have been used.  And of course it was very much not a running loop - vehicles could only be put into it by a setting back movement off either running line (and, rather oddly, if the SRS sketch is correct it had a plain diamond instead of a single slip which would have duplicated the Main lines trailing crossover - which was maybe why it was only a plain diamond?). So your surmise immediately above as to how it would be used by a Down train is probably pretty accurate.

 

Standing trains aside, at both ends, would have been down using the refuge sidings and neither of these was particularly long - the Down Refuge Siding (at Savernake East) could only hold 40 wagons while the Up Refuge Siding (at Savernake West) could manage 42. in both cases those figures were in addition to the engine and brakevan.  Thus any train shunting on the Up side could be shoved back int the Up Refuge Siding, or even onto the branch in extremis, although looking at both the 1938 and 1947 service timetables it is clear that there were no other freights booked to be about when the trips were working at Savernake so no problems with getting into the refuge sidings.

 

I have really only looking at what might be termed 'later years' using information from 1938 or later  so it can be interesting to turn the clock back and try to relate things to a track layout which a map - hopefully accurately - shows to have been there to the way in which trains were worked.  A look at the January 1917 Service Time Table (STT) tells us a slightly different story with two Down overnight freight trains calling at Savernake in addition to two Up freight trains.  there is no mention of either Savernake or Marlborough Station Trucks so presumably any traffic for either place was loaded to the Devizes truck on the 00.25 Paddington which is shown to convey traffic for intermediate station west of Newbury.  At that time of course Marlborough (GW) branch freight traffic was worked via Savernake and there was one Mixed train a day in each direction on the branch plus a daily freight trip which worked from Marlborough to Savernake & back and probably did the bulk of the shunting of branch traffic while at Savernake although siding space at Savernake was fairly limited at that time (No Up Refuge Siding according to the OS map but there was the short siding on the Up side at Savernake West).  Thus as is so often the case the track layout we are looking at post-war is little changed from  that of many years earlier although following the Grouping, or at any rate some time after WWI, the pattern of traffic working changed so no doubt one thing which changed considerably was the amount of use made of that short looped siding.

 

A layout of course ned not slavishly follow the workings of the prototype station on which it is based unless you are, I suppose, giving it the real name of the place.  But even then you might find it useful to bend history a bit and - for example - ignore the M&SWJtR  and work Marlborough as a branch line with freight traffic exchanged at the junction stations.  But it is still more believable, in my view, to work traffic in a way which makes sense in the real world because you do at least know that it actually works!

[Chris Dark]

Thanks Mike,

 

Are you able to link me to the images you have found of the loop please.

 

It seems there is plenty of operating interest for Savernake along with the variety in trains. Hopefully I get get into temblor and start producing templates for the build

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike,

 

Are you able to link me to the images you have found of the loop please.

 

It seems there is plenty of operating interest for Savernake along with the variety in trains. Hopefully I get get into temblor and start producing templates for the build

 

There are three views which show the loop siding - albeit in the distance when all of it is visible - on the page below; the stations are in geographical order from the north end and Savernake High Level comes before Savernake Low level.

 

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/db200.html

[Chris Dark]

Hi Mike,

 

The down loop siding you estimated could hold 10-12 wagons. Would this include the loco or just the wagons on there own?

 

I am putting together my Templot layout so am trying to get things there or there abouts in terms of scale to each other.

 

I give myself 10cm per wagon as a guide, so at the moment I have a loop length of around 1m. Although the down refuge was a lot longer I can only manager 1.3m but is long enough to hold a decent length train.

 

Thanks