BR coaching stock in the valleys of South Wales in the early to mid 1950s

[Holmside]

Some early batches of banana vans reputedly had a 9' wheelbase, but photos appear to be non-existent.

 

Bill

[chrisf]

Holmside, banana vans are not coaching stock.  Have another go!

 

Chris

[Holmside]

Sorry about the bungle in making the first post. It was caused by finger trouble coupled with my obvious inability to understand how to launch a new post. So, here goes my second attempt:

 

At the excellent North Norfolk Railway gala of last weekend, I bought some old magazines. Among these was the December 1996 edition of 'British Railways Illustrated' (vol. 6 no. 3). I bought this because it contained a (to me ) fascinating article on the introduction of regular-interval passenger services in the Cardiff valeys (pp 130-143). My 4mm-scale layout is set in this area in the early-mid 1950s.

 

My request for information concerns the three photographs on pages 134 - 135 of the said magazine. In particular, the coaching stock. These photographs clearly show coaches with END windows: one at each side. I had always assumed ( obviously wrongly) that most of the trains in this area at this time (early 1950s and steam-hauled) comprised B-set coaches which did not have end windows. My question is, therefore:

 

(a) What were the officially-designated names/drawing numbers of the coaches in use on these valleys services (apart from B-sets and autocoaches) ?

 

(b) Has any manufacturer made 4mm-scale models of of these coaches (either complete or in kit form) and if so, what is/was the name of the manufacturer ?

 

© If there were/are no complete or kit-form models of these coaches, where can I find detailed drawings of them ?

 

I advance, I would like to thank anyone for any response that they are able to make.

[chrisf]

I can shed a bit of light.  The coaches with end windows are non-corridor brake thirds [brake seconds after June 1956].  You will have gathered from the article that the world changed on 21st September 1953.  From that date the majority of passenger trains in the Cardiff Valleys comprised "standard five coach sets" formed brake third, third, composite, third, brake third.  One or two additional thirds could be added at peak times [rush hours and weekends].  At that time also the use of auto trains was greatly expanded, replacing B sets on the Porth - Maerdy, Abercynon - Aberdare LL and Barry - Bridgend services, together with what was left of the weekday service between Barry and Pontypridd via Wenvoe.

 

Before the timetable recast there were some four coach [brake third, two composites, brake third] and five coach sets [brake third, third, composite, third, brake third], a number of B sets, auto trains and, as you can see from the 1952 picture of the Coryton branch train on page 133, a right mixture of other stock.  During World War 2 additional trains were run to serve ordnance factories and their workforces so stock from other parts of the GWR was drafted in to South Wales.  When the new sets were assembled in 1953 they used whatever stock was available, including that formed in the existing sets and coaches previously in general service.  The emphasis was on providing the right number of seats in each set rather than having them look neat and tidy.

 

I cannot help much with drawings, I'm afraid, as unless someone knows better I reckon they have all disappeared into private hands.  As for models, there are some Comet kits but I need to refresh my memory and will post again later.

 

Chris 

[The Johnster]

Subject to comment and correction by ChrisF, who knows a lot more about this sort of thing than I do, Valleys compartment coaches with end windows in were of two basic types; the one you refer to with a window on each side being a Hawksworth Brake 3rd (2nd post 6/56).  There were also some Collett flat ended brake 3rds converted to auto trailers in 1955, and these had a single window cut into the centre of the end; the other give away was the provision of a bell as on all auto stock with driving cabs.  To accompany these, some matching Collett compartment all 3rds were provided with the auto linkage, but not driving cabs; these could be seen running with earlier open saloon type trailers on auto services marshalled between the loco and the trailer with the driving cab.

 

B sets were not as common in the area as you seem to think pre 1953, certainly not 'most' and less so post 1953, but were I know used on the Porth-Ferndale service, sometimes with a strengthener, and the Bargoed-Dowlais Cae Harris service.  Incidentally the term 'B set' would have been unknown to local railwaymen at the time, being something that originated in the Bristol Division's coach working diagrams, and largely popularised by enthusiasts, including modellers.  There were some boweded B sets running on 9' bogies and some flatended ones, also on 9' bogies but I am not able to definitively state South Wales allocations of these.  B sets with 7' bogies were, AFAIK, those with recessed guard's doors.

 

The 5 coach 'standard' sets were made up of what was available, and a completely matching set was rare.  3 basic types are involved, Collett bow enders with 7' (again I think with recessed guard's doors) or 9' bogies, Collet flat enders with 9' bogies, and Hawkworth flat enders with 9' bogies.  Strengtheners might be any of those types or a pre-grouping coach, or a BR mk1 in later years.

 

Apart from the BR mk1 or Collett bowended B sets on 7' bogies, no RTR manufacturer has ever to my knowledge made any model of any of these non-compartment vehicles, not counting generic and inaccurate versions of freelance 'suburban' coaches from the likes of Triang and Graham Farish.  Comet made kits or brass side overlays for some of them, but I am not certain of the current availability of this range, and to the best of my knowledge, no new kits or RTR models are 'in the pipeline'.  One of the issues is that the later coaches are based on a 'modular' construction of 1st, 3rd, and brake compartments of different sizes, which means that any manufacturer intending to introduce them would be committed to making 3 different length chassis for them.  Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear!

 

The Newport-Brecon and Pontypool Road-Neath trains required main line stock with gangways giving access to toilets, being of over 2 hours duration, and these consisted of Collett and Hawkworth vehicles.  These are, of course, easily obtainable from the current Hornby and Bachmann ranges.

 

For diagram numbers, I would refer you to Russel's 'Great Western Coaches'.  The converted Collett flatended brake third auto trailers fitted with driving compartments and central windows in the driving (brake compartment) ends were diagram A44, and introduced in 1955, therefore not as part of the 1953 timetable changes.  The 'matching' all 3rds fitted with auto linkage in 1953 were not given a diagram number in the auto series or stock numbered in that series, continuing to carry their original coaching stock numbers; apart from the auto linkage, there was nothing visually to distinguish them from ordinary loco hauled examples of the same type.

Edited September 5, 2017 by The Johnster

[chrisf]

Thanks for holding the fort, Johnster.

 

I've refreshed my memory on the Comet range, which is available from its new owner Wizard Models.  Kit W21 makes a C61 bow ended 9 compartment third and with different ends could also yield the less abundant C63.  W22 is for the E141 composite and W23 the D109 brake third but one would need to cut the windows in the brake end.  W18 is listed as making a C66 or C75 third but is, I'm afraid, a hybrid.  The sides are from a C66 but the ends belong to the C75 which had a different profile and deeper windows.  Finally W19 is also a hybrid of the sides of a D117 brake third and the ends of a D125.  In addition I prefer the 2970L roof from MJT which is a lot closer to the GW roof profile than the Comet roof but does mean you need new ends.

 

As for rtr, don't hold your breath.  The GWR went through a period of chronic indecision in Collett's term of office and produced coaches with many different contours and lengths.  This could be why the red and blue box kings have fought shy of them thus far.  If I were considering which types to add to a range I would find it very difficult to reach a decision.

 

If i can be of any more help do please let me know.

 

Chris

[chrisf]

I have had a go at identifying some of the stock illustrated in the article.  Those readers who do not have BRILL for December 1996 open in front of them may talk among themselves!

 

Page 130 - C66 Third, 2xE147 Brake Composite.  The caption appears to be wrong in that the train is approaching Pontypridd from the Abercynon direction and therefore not from Barry, thpugh the loco carries a BK target which shows that it is a Barry working.

Page 132 - C66 Third, C63 Third, D117 Brake Third, other one indistinct.  The coach on the left is of Rhymney Railway parentage and had probably been relegated to workmen's use by this time.

Page 133 lower - C83 Third, two corridor coaches, probably another C83.  These were built post-war and so were nearly new when the photo was taken.

Page 134 - D117 Brake Third, remainder indistinct.

Page 135 upper - D125 Brake third [note curved rainstrip, a passing fad], C83 Third, remainder indistinct.  JC was not the 11.0 am Merthyr - Barry Island but the 1.20 pm Merthyr - Queen Street.

Page 135 lower - D132 Brake Third, C66 Third.  I think it should be the 1.34 pm Aberdare HL - Bute Road.

Page 137 - D117 Brake Third, C83 Third, E166 Composite, C63 Third, D110 Brake Third.

Page 140 - D117 Brake Third, C83 Third, remainder not distinct.

Page 141 upper - C66 Third, D109 Brake Third, others indistinct.

Page 141 lower - D132 Brake Third, C83 Third, remainder not distinct.

Page 142 - D110 Brake third, C66 Third.

 

Chris

[corneliuslundie]

There was also still quite a lot of pre-grouping stock around, probably used mainly as strengtheners. There are photos I know of of Rhymney Railway coaches and Barry Railway coaches also lasted until late. I suspect the same is true for the Taff Vale Railway though i do not know. There were also some interesting left-overs such as conversions of former steam rail motors including a pair which worked together on I seem to remember the Coryton line.

A bit vague but if you look around there are lots of photos available, also drawings of some.

Jonathan

[chrisf]

Jonathan, you are absolutely right that pre-grouping stock lasted into the 50s.  An ex-Taff Vale compartment coach was at Barry on the Sunday in June 1955 when the RCTS Bristol branch pitched up around 6 am in a GW railcar as part of a shedbash but I don't know whether it was in a set or loose.  Needless to say I was not present!

 

There are plenty more photos in books of Valleys trains in the run-up to dieselisation but I am minded to wait for the OP to recoil in horror or otherwise react before rummaging further.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

Photos in John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers Part 1'; page 43 RR 'semi open' third 1099 at Cae Harris 1947, looks as if it is being used as a strengthener as coupled to Hawkworth brake 3rd, page 44 TVR auto trailer composite 6422 at Caerphilly Works August 1951, page 47 Cardiff Railway auto trailer W143 at Queen Street in up Rhymney platform with 64xx, probably on Coryton service, no date but in 1949 carmine and cream livery.  This coach is gangwayed to it's partner, and apparently is an intermediate with no driving cab.  Photos are to illustrate livery variations.  

 

IIRC the converted TVR railmotor set had open vestibules entered through 'scissors' gates that slid across them; fun to model and a challenge to model operating (don't look at me)!

 

I do not possess Part 2, which no doubt has more photos and more information as it includes absorbed and constituent trailers.

Edited September 6, 2017 by The Johnster

[Holmside]

1) Many thanks to those who have taken the time and trouble to reply to my initiation of this thread. In truth, I confess to being not a little embarassed at my living for so long in the fool's paradise of surmising that it was mostly B-sets on the shorter valleys passenger sevices: I should have known that nothing could possibly be that simple ......

 

2) At the risk of portraying my ignorance further, however, there are one or two matters that I still don't understand or don't know and on which would appreciate some further advice and guidance. These are as follows:

 

A) I have never come across the term 'strengthener' before in this context. I can hazard a guess at what it means but, as I hope all will understand, I am a bit averse to making assumptions on these matters at the moment !

 

B) Concerning chrisf's post of 05 September in which the diagram numbers of the carriages depicted in the cited BRILL article are listed, I cannot find all of these in the index of Russel's book 'Great Western Coaches' part 2 (pp 271-273). In particular :

 

C66

No drawing or photo of E147 appears on p 192

C63

D132

D109

D110

E166 does not seem to appear in Russell's index or in the list given at gwr.org.uk (available kits are listed where available at this website)

 

C I must emphasise that this is not in any way a criticism of anyone: it may well be that there are omissions or typos in Russell's book and I only raise the matter because, as I mentioned in my initial (ie non-bungled) post, I would like to ascertain whether or not any RTR or kit examples of appropriate vehicles do or have existed. Moreover, if similar examples are available then these might be suitable for modification given access to photos/GAs of the required vehicle.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Holmside

[The Johnster]

A strengthener is an additional coach coupled to an already made up set to cope with an expected short term or temporary increase in traffic, such as on market days, Bank Holidays, or, in South Wales, rugby international days.  Before the advent of multiple unit trains, most carriage sidings had, as well as a spare set or two ready to go at a moment's notice, a collection of individual thirds, composites, and brakes (but mostly full thirds), often of dubious quality and varying degrees of obsolescence and decrepitude, that could be used for this sort of thing.

 

B sets were, as has been said, used in South Wales but by and large there was too much traffic for them, as four or five coach sets were the norm, and they had too high a proportion of van space to be used 'in multiple'; the accommodation in 3 B sets is about the same as a 5 coach train that was easier to keep time with and which the shorter platforms on the Rhymney section could handle.  Valleys services were short haul, but busy and heavily patronised.  

 

I will leave discussion of diagrams to Chrisf, who knows what he's talking about.  But, sadly, the answer to your question about RTR or kits is, in the case of RTR, B sets are it, and in the case of kits, the only ones I am aware of are the old Comet range, which may now be available through Wizard, but the current situation with kits in general is not a good or improving one!   'Lookalike' Collettesque bow ended Composites, all Thirds, and Brake 3rds can be cut and shut out of Airfix/Dapol/Hornby B set coaches, but are not accurate models; whether they are acceptable to you is down to your interpretation of Rule 1.  You would need 3 B set coaches to make one all third with the right number of compartments.  I run a B set on my South Wales BLT with a BR mk1 strengthener, and am quite happy with it, but I'm winging it a bit as I've never seen a photo of such a formation or been able to reference one!

Edited September 11, 2017 by The Johnster

[chrisf]

Oh heavens, someone who says I know what I'm talking about.  Gulp ...

 

Russell's books are poorly edited and inclined to favour the exotic over the commonplace, I'm afraid.  Let me refresh my memory of what is in them and what is not.  I'm afraid I cannot do it before Wednesday as I'm away all day on Tuesday.  I suspect that the absence of E.166 from Russell is down to the coaches not having been built until 1952.

 

Meanwhile I can confirm that the Comet range is available through Wizard.

 

Chris 

[phil_sutters]

It may not be of any use, but just to add a bit of pictorial interest, here's the only photo I can find in Dad's albums of the stock with end windows. Ex Taff Vale 409 Cardiff 21.9.1946

Edited September 11, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Holmside]

Johnster wrote:

 

' whether they are acceptable to you is down to your interpretation of Rule 1.  '

 

Er, at the risk of making myself look even more ignorant, what is Rule 1 ?

 

Again, thanks to all who have taken the time and trouble to reply. As a consequence of the replies, however, it is beginning to look like the layout will, perforce, now have to depict a colliery located on a line whose passenger services have been recently withdrawn.

 

Gloom.

 

Now, where did I put all those 7-plank and coke wagon kits that I bought ?

[Budgie]

The Rules of my Railway

• It’s my railway and I’ll do things my way and run what I like.
• If I don’t know something, I’ll make it up.
• If it looks right, it most probably isn’t, but nobody will notice anyway.
• If you don’t like something on my railway, that’s your problem; don’t bother me with it.
• Rivets are for joining things together, not for counting.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Budgie

[The Johnster]

Rules 6 to infinity.... if in any doubt, refer to Rule 1.

 

Don't give up on a passenger service just yet; B sets weren't unknown, just not the norm, and there is plenty of scope for auto services.  And worth a mention that the last trains using the Ratio type 4 wheelers ran in South Wales, until the mid 50s, as miner's workman's services, in one case replaced by the last of the non-gangwayed Dean clerestory bogie stock, the ones Triang produced to go with Lord of the Isles, which aren't too bad if you replace the bogies; the ones off Dapol City of Truro construction kits will do.  Easy repaint job as well in wartime austerity plain brown or BR crimson.

 

The passenger service on my South Wales BLT is a B set and an auto, with a rake of 4 wheelers for the miner's workman's.

[The Johnster]

Oh heavens, someone who says I know what I'm talking about.  Gulp ...

 

Russell's books are poorly edited and inclined to favour the exotic over the commonplace, I'm afraid.  Let me refresh my memory of what is in them and what is not.  I'm afraid I cannot do it before Wednesday as I'm away all day on Tuesday.  I suspect that the absence of E.166 from Russell is down to the coaches not having been built until 1952.

 

Meanwhile I can confirm that the Comet range is available through Wizard.

 

Chris 

 

More to the point, Chris, you often know what I'm talking about, usually when I don't...

[Holmside]

Sorry to drag this out yet further, but at the Pontypool and Blaenavon railway gala last weekend (my first ever visit, enjoyed it immensely: the sight and sound of locos working that hard up to Furnace Sidings is simply spectacular. And I'm a volunteer at the MHR where they know a thing or two about locos having to work hard ! ) I came across a facinating photograph in the entrance to the station at Furnace Sidings. It was of an Ivatt tank (41201/2 or 3, I think), connected to WR autocoach (sorry ! I must break the habit of a lifetime and refer to them as autotrailers in future) the end opposite to the driving end of which had a large window in it. I well remember observing and travelling on autotrains on the Trowbridge-Swindon service in the mid 1950s, but cannot recall seeing vehicles with such end widows (though, of course, the memory does play tricks). Thus, my question to the experts is can they please supply reference sources for pertinent diagram numbers and other photos depicting such vehicles ? This because Johnster's suggestion of auto services might help resolve my dilemma regarding carriages !

Edited September 13, 2017 by Holmside

[chrisf]

Hello Holmside

 

From yesterday's posts and your initial enquiry I see that you want a line set in the early to mid 50s with a colliery and, if possible, a passenger service with a B set.  We have something to work on, I think. My own view of B sets is that they are an overdone cliche but Rule 1 applies and it is YOUR railway so don't mind me.

 

Let us first consider the valleys north of Cardiff, which if I understand correctly would be your preference for location.  Would you be able to set it before September 1953?  If so, there is scope for using B sets on a line based on the Porth - Maerdy and Abercynon - Aberdare branches.  The Caerphilly - Senghenydd service was provided by auto trains with the added bonus of a colliers' train which until 1952 was formed with four wheel coaches.  If you could countenance the Western Valleys north of Newport, much of the service between Newport and Brynmawr was run with B sets until the dmus arrived in 1957.

 

I have now seen your latest post.  I'm not sure what the coach with large windows at the Pontypool and Blaenavon is but I don't remember an auto trailer there.  The Cardiff Valleys saw a variety of trailers between 1953 and 1958 so you are almost spoiled for choice!

 

Finally, for now, I wonder if you have come across another MHR volunteer, Chris Jones.  He is Chris116 of this parish.

 

Chrisf

 

Edited for poor comprehension!

Edited September 14, 2017 by chrisf

[br2975]

I came across a facinating photograph in the entrance to the station at Furnace Sidings. It was of an Ivatt tank (41201/2 or 3, I think), connected to WR autocoach (sorry ! I must break the habit of a lifetime and refer to them as autotrailers in future) the end opposite to the driving end of which had a large window in it. I well remember observing and travelling on autotrains on the Trowbridge-Swindon service in the mid 1950s, but cannot recall seeing vehicles with such end widows (though, of course, the memory does play tricks). Thus, my question to the experts is can they please supply reference sources for pertinent diagram numbers and other photos depicting such vehicles ? This because Johnster's suggestion of auto services might help resolve my dilemma regarding carriages !

 

'Holmside' do you know where the photo was taken ?

 

Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T's worked the ex-LNWR lines and the Heads of the Valleys (Abergavenny-Merthyr) line during the 1950s.

 

41201, 41202, 41203 at least worked off Abergavenny, whilst 41204 was a Tredegar loco.

 

Could this have been an inspection saloon ?

 

Could it have been one of the LMS 'motor fitted' trailers ? (but they had three windows in the drivers cab) - not common in the Monmouthshire valleys but once used on the former MR lines from Swansea St. Thomas - Brynamman etc.

 

From your description, I suspect, the vehicle may be of the BR (WR) conversions of compartment brakes (Chris F will have diagram details) which only featured one large central window at the driving end; one of which features in non-auto mode in a Sid Rickard shot ( at Pontllanfraith ? ) behind a 56xx tank.

.

Brian R

Edited September 13, 2017 by br2975

[chrisf]

 

Chrisf here.  I wonder if Holmside's coach was anything like this?  The picture was taken by the late John Cull at Abergavenny Junction on 4th April 1953 and is now part of the RCTS photographic collection.  I hope the Society does not mind me using it for this purpose.  The coach is of Lancashire and Yorkshire parentage and that is all I know about it!

 

Chris

[br2975]

.................whereas I thought ( despite the power being an ex-LMS 2-6-2T ) that the one large window may mean it was a Dia. A44 trailer, converted in 1955 from GWR Dia D.117 Brakes.

.

The photo I referred to was of 6641 on a Tredegar bound train at Pontllanfraith in August, 1959 formed of a solitary A44 trailer. Taken by Sid Rickard it appears in the D&C album, Great Western Steam in South Wales.

.

But, I'm probably away on a wild goose chase.

.

Brian R

,

PS

There have been published shots of these L&Y motor fitted ( LMS terminology) trailers at Merthyr, having worked in on the Heads of the Valleys line from Abergavenny.

Edited September 13, 2017 by br2975

[philip-griffiths]

Scan_20170913.jpg

 

Chrisf here.  I wonder if Holmside's coach was anything like this?  The picture was taken by the late John Cull at Abergavenny Junction on 4th April 1953 and is now part of the RCTS photographic collection.  I hope the Society does not mind me using it for this purpose.  The coach is of Lancashire and Yorkshire parentage and that is all I know about it!

 

Chris

I spent some time investigating these L&Y carriages. They were cascaded down to the MTA after 1932. They are BTOs to use BR terminology, Fireproof stock, built for Manchester to Stockport from memory. Great photo. Probably the best ive seen.

 

Regarding autotrailers. The Abergavenny/Tredegar Ivatts were not to my knowledge autofitted. There are pictures of Stanier 2-6-2Ts working single carriage trains but not as an autoworking.

 

The Brynmawr-Ebbw Vale working was an autotrailer and webb coal tank.

 

There is an autotrailer in the Vale of Neath WTT for 1944. It ran from Pontypool to Hengoed term time only - served Lewis Girls. My mother says that by the time she was on it in the mid 50s it was a normal train with non corridor compartments.

[chrisf]

Aha!  I detect someone who knows a bit about LMS coaches!  I am interested, and have been for a great many years, in the example marshalled in the formation of the 2 pm Merthyr - Barry Island in February 1958.  Sid Rickard's photo of this working passing Castell Coch was published again in a recent issue of Railway Bylines.  The coach is a Period 2 lavatory brake second as modelled by Airfix yonks ago.  I want to put the correct number on mine.  Keith Jones, who is the current custodian of Sid's photos, made a valiant attempt to find out by blowing up the negative.  Sadly all he could tell me was what I already knew, viz that one of the numbers was 2.

 

As we all know, RMweb functions partly on infinite improbability drive.  If anyone does know the number of that so-and-so coach, now would be a good time to step forward and tell.

 

I have not forgotten my promise to refresh my memory about what is and isn't in Russell's GWR coach books.  Stay tuned.

 

Chris