Are view blocks effective in hiding train length?

[Pacific231G]

On 03/02/2022 at 04:38, chesterfield said:

I had been interested in Geoff Ashdown's Tower Pier for some time and as a result of this thread have managed to get the answers to a couple of mysteries. I'd never seen the photo with the underground train before nor had I found any photos of his fiddle yard. I have one question however in your drawing of the layout you show the second line to Saint Catherine Dock as if it was in use on the layout. My impression from the signalling diagram that there was only one line to the docks in use and it seems to be signalled that way. Do you remember if this was the case and whether or not Geoff used the other line as storage or was it "lifted" ?

It definitely wasn't lifted. There is indeed only one running line, signalled bi directionally, to St. Katherine's Dock and the other is presented as a siding off Tower Hill Yard also going to the dock . In reality both are hidden under a high level road in front of the passenger station (which hinges up for access) so that trains can appear to disappear off to the dock. Tower Hill Yard (the two visible sidings) is supposed to be for sorting wagons before they're taken down to the dock where space would have been very restricted (St. Katherine's Dock was one of very few in  London that didn't in reality have a rail connection)

I'm guessing now but it seems likely that complete trains (albeit short ones) could go down to the dock on the direct signalled line. The other line connects  the Dock to Tower Hill Yard without needing to go onto the running lines so presumably wagons were shunted there and run down to the dock, possibly to the nearer basin, as shunting moves. I'll take another look at Geoff's articles to see if they shed any light.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Pacific231G

[chesterfield]

12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

see next post

On 11/10/2017 at 10:40, Pacific231G said:

I think it's more Cyril Freezer (Minories) and Geoff Ashdown (Tower Pier) that have helped you but glad to have passed on their collective wisdom. .

 

Apologies if I sounded like I thought you had been dismissive; you were quite right to emphasise the importance of the bridge. The only problem with it is how to deal with it at the back of the layout. With enough room I suppose a T junction and a low relief street overlooking the railway is one solution. French stations including termini often had overall roofs no longer than the station building with the platform ends beyond so that should provide another view blocker. to hide the shortness of trains. 

 

 

 

I found Tower Pier incredibly inspiring when I first saw it at ExpoEM in I think 2011 and a couple of times since. This is my rather crude re-rendering of the track plan using Peco pointwork but what I've shown as a slip in the lower right hand corner is actually two interlaced points . 

 

 

Geoff Ashdown's own SB diagram may be clearer

 

 

The only thing I didn't go for was having the goods lines effectively as a  separate layout though it's well justified by there being a junction at the next signal box and the goods lines have their own block instruments. It  does enable the goods lines to be at a slightly higher level which is visually very effective and also very Widened Lines.The "legend" that Geoff Ashdown has come up with for the layout, placing it in a real location and giving St. Katherine's Dock the rail connection it looks like it should have had is brilliant.

 

Looking at it again now is reminding me just how well thought out it is. Operatonally the passenger side is equivalent to Minories though with the addition of the loco release crossover and this plan makes platform three slightly longer.. Overall the idea of a layout that effectively puts you in the signal box is terrific. 

I also loved this little scenic touch

We really are in the City with the District and Circle passing beneath. The Underground train never moves but I used to commute on that line so no surprise there

I had been interested in Geoff Ashdown's Tower Pier for some time and as a result of this thread have managed to get the answers to a couple of mysteries. I'd never seen the photo with the underground train before nor had I found any photos of his fiddle yard. I have one question however in your drawing of the layout you show the second line to Saint Catherine Dock as if it was in use on the layout. My impression from the signalling diagram that there was only one line to the docks in use and it seems to be signalled that way. Do you remember if this was the case and whether or not Geoff used the other line as storage or was it "lifted" ?

 

Thank you David  makes sense

[chesterfield]

GWR seems to have had a river side depot in Poplar but St C dock idea appeals Thank you for your prompt reply . 

[Nearholmer]

St Katherine Docks have their own thread here, where we went into the logistics of trade along the river in a bit of detail

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

An interesting conversation to read through, with a lot of very good insights that could be applied quite widely.

 

On 11/10/2017 at 15:00, Harlequin said:

Has anyone ever used DCC sound to suggest that trains are much longer and more massive than the actual models?

 

For example, when your short HST set pulls into a platform and stops, play the realistic sounds of both power cars, 8 carriages and all the interlinking gubbins all coming to a stop?

 

Would that help the illusion? I wonder...

 

I realise Phil’s post was from the ‘pre-resurrection’ part of the thread but it did set me thinking.  It would be an interesting experiment to try: does the separation of sound and vision help the illusion, or does it become confusing?  Did anyone try it?

 

I must admit, my thoughts then turned to the exhibition hall scenario where School Gym acoustics can mean some adjacent exhibitors comment that DCC sound from the next layout becomes rather irritating - and I wondered what the reaction would be to a day listening to three coach trains making the sound of 10-car units?

 

More constructively, it reminded me of a contribution made by @t-b-g in the Minories design thread about how he uses sound in a different way on compact terminus - fiddle yard layouts: in order to get round the problem of the long gap that would be required between opposing train movements on a single track line when only a small portion of it is visible, he uses traditional signal box bell codes sounded from the Fiddle Yard to mark the end of one movement, and prepare for the next.  It then becomes easier to imagine the departing train has already reached the next passing point.

 

Given that this seems to work (and seems entirely logical), it’s then a question as to whether the opposite - lengthening the illusion using sound - is just as effective.  Trouble is, trying to imagine it (I don’t have DCC or Sound locos), suggests it won’t, but I’m not sure why…?

[simon b]

Back to the original tropic for a moment, a good example of the view blocker/bigger station idea was "kilmister" by Class 74 of this forum. Although american outline the concept is the same.