No trains between MK and Euston

[TheSignalEngineer]

Is most of Watford North Junction still plain lined?

Don't know the current state of the PWay.

I don't know whether any moves there other than Up Slow to Down Slow are signalled. In my day turnback moves where often done on the trailing crossovers to the south of the station. 

[Oldddudders]

Don't know the current state of the PWay.

I don't know whether any moves there other than Up Slow to Down Slow are signalled. In my day turnback moves where often done on the trailing crossovers to the south of the station. 

 

Rather irrelevant, frankly. What should be happening is that the TOC should be poking NR firmly in the chest and saying "We want to get our customers as close to London as possible. Make it happen!" NR is there to provide a service to its customers, the TOCs. You'd seldom guess it. 

[Trog]

Don't know the current state of the PWay.

I don't know whether any moves there other than Up Slow to Down Slow are signalled. In my day turnback moves where often done on the trailing crossovers to the south of the station. 

 

If you are thinking of the ladder across from the DF to the Abbey Branch Headshunt just off the southern platform ends that was removed in the remodeling.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Rather irrelevant, frankly. What should be happening is that the TOC should be poking NR firmly in the chest and saying "We want to get our customers as close to London as possible. Make it happen!" NR is there to provide a service to its customers, the TOCs. You'd seldom guess it. 

A big problem with WCML since remodelling is that it is set up, and its staff trained, to work a straight up and down railway where nothing could ever possibly go wrong and nothing will ever need fixing or renewing. When the inevitable happens you just shut down 50-mile stretches rather than trying to run trains.

[Davexoc]

Wasn't the closure more about liabilty for the worse possible scenario. Don't forget the recent landslip that derailed that SB 350 in the Watford tunnel to be hit by the next NB service.

Someone has done a quick risk assessment, wall of burnt out building next to the line, possible outcome it falls onto the adjacent lines, derailment followed by collision with opposing service, outcome possible fatality.

Result, close down the whole line because the insurance payout could be astronomical if anything bad happens.

Its the world we live in now......

 

Dave

[TheSignalEngineer]

Closure was inevitable for a period. The biggest problem these days is the length these closures become. At one time the trains would have gone to Watford Junction and the passengers put onto the DC lines which were open with trains running more or less right time all day.

[Oldddudders]

Closure was inevitable for a period. The biggest problem these days is the length these closures become. At one time the trains would have gone to Watford Junction and the passengers put onto the DC lines which were open with trains running more or less right time all day.

 

People are cleverly making "business decisions" and forgetting who pays the piper. 

[The Johnster]

Possibly, after all they are running a business, and it is the shareholders who are paying the piper, but elf'n'safety precludes running until possibly damaged structures next to the railway are confirmed safe or demolished by someone qualified and informed enough to make the call, and rightly so too.  I'd say that NR have done pretty well as apparently the WCML is now fully back in business and the trains will be mostly in the right place.  There is little point in TOCs prodding NR in the chest and demanding that they 'make it so' when the problem is outside of railway property and not within NR's remit to do anything about.  The decision to close the line until the situation had been resolved in a way that ensured the safety of trains was correct, and I doubt many of the inconvenienced travellers affected would disagree with that statement. 

 

Or, put another way, supposing the railway had been kept open and the end wall of the building had collapsed, while burning, onto or into the path of a train, and supposing the resultant derailment was hit by one on the adjacent running line.  There would, this evening, be demands for heads to roll (sadly, some probably would have) and tomorrow's papers would be in full hysteria mode.  

 

Informing passengers (or...) is always the weak point in these situations, and one can understand why hard facts are difficult to obtain in the earliest stages when awareness of the situation is developing, but that is when decisions that may still be affecting the situation 12 or more hours later must be made.  Passengers seem to have been informed 'as well as could be expectedly' in this case, but there is always room for improvement.  Sadly, there is a culture of 'keep it quiet and don't say anything the media can misinterpret until we've cobbled up a statement (which will be so vague as to be certain of misinterpretation)' which I remember from my own days on the railway and which has it's roots in lurid gutter press reportage of Victorian train crashes.  The railway has improved, but the media hasn't...

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

Or, put another way, supposing the railway had been kept open and the end wall of the building had collapsed, while burning, onto or into the path of a train, and supposing the resultant derailment was hit by one on the adjacent running line.  There would, this evening, be demands for heads to roll (sadly, some probably would have) and tomorrow's papers would be in full hysteria mode.  

.

I don't think any of us are arguing that the railway shouldn't have been closed, but on the length of the closures put in place these days. The railway is no longer set up to do anything other than run when there are no problems. The contractual culture / delay attribution or whatever is in vogue these days / not in the script so I can't do it attitude doesn't allow 

 

Straying off  topic, roads are no better these days mainly due to too much traffic, too liitle investment and no management of the system when things go wrong. Today yet another accident leading to delays on M62 westbound over the top, third time this week I think.. There isn't a plan to manage the traffic when it happens. Drivers check SatNav and go via Woodhead. I was out on the hills and could see the queue for Mottram traffic lights stretching right back up Longdendale. Checking the Highways England report I found that the back of the queue was around Woodhead summit, about 11 miles back from the lights. People in jam turn off through Glossop only to find they are in another jam waiting to rejoin the first one. They then turn off and gridlock Broadbottom or Marple trying to divert to Stockport. 

 

The root cause is the country doesn't have a transport plan, hasn't had one except in wartime and things are unlikely to change in my lifetime or several others after it until the fuel runs out and congestion solves itself.

 

Rant over. Sorry, I've been fitting loco details and and have ended up in Grumpy Old Git mode. Time for bed said Zebedee.

[jjb1970]

The fire was at Headstone Lane, close to H&W station. That is nowhere near Watford Junction station and I'd have hoped that one of the contingency plans for a closure of the WCML south of Watford Junction would be to keep a service to Watford to get people in/out via the overground.

I know station staff were telling passengers that they were trying to organise buses between MK Central and Luton but that doesn't help those from other stations. Using the Marston Vale line as an alternative route is hamstrung by the capacity of that line, basically an hourly service with a single car train.

On the nature of companies, good companies in a competitive market take customer service very seriously as their financial future depends on retaining those customers. The passenger railway isn't really a private entity, it is more a government managed concession with service delivery outsourced to private companies supplying a de-facto monopoly service to many of their passengers.

[jjb1970]

On transport planning, having no plan is not the same as having a bad plan. I think we do have a plan but that it is a bad plan and planning is vested in a government department which seems to be incompetent. If anything I think a big part of the problem is too much planning and meddling by DafT.

[Bernard Lamb]

How quickly things change.

I can remember arriving at MK from Birmingham back when Virgin started to run trains, to be met by a total shut down due to a storm having taken out the signalling. I spotted Chris Green amongst a small group of railway staff handing out drinks and sandwiches to passengers. On another occasion, as well as refreshments, I got a goody bag containing a pack of playing cards and drawing materials for the younger travellers.

It looks as though all is OK this morning. I hope so as I will be using London Midland in an hour or so.

Bernard

[jim.snowdon]

The fire was at Headstone Lane, close to H&W station. That is nowhere near Watford Junction station and I'd have hoped that one of the contingency plans for a closure of the WCML south of Watford Junction would be to keep a service to Watford to get people in/out via the overground.

I know station staff were telling passengers that they were trying to organise buses between MK Central and Luton but that doesn't help those from other stations. Using the Marston Vale line as an alternative route is hamstrung by the capacity of that line, basically an hourly service with a single car train.

On the nature of companies, good companies in a competitive market take customer service very seriously as their financial future depends on retaining those customers. The passenger railway isn't really a private entity, it is more a government managed concession with service delivery outsourced to private companies supplying a de-facto monopoly service to many of their passengers.

Having checked the Sectional Appendix, it would appear that the last point at which trains heading towards Euston could sensibly be reversed is Milton Keynes. South from there, the railway is essentially just a plain four track line with nothing more than fast to slow crossovers at intervals all the way to Euston. Watford North junction, which was really only a fast/slow crossover set is operationally non-existent (and I am fairly certain parts of it are plain lined), and Watford South junction is just another crossover set. None of the platforms are shown as having any reversibility (apart from the terminal platform 10, which faces Euston anyway).

 

In essence, it could be said that the railway is no longer laid out for contingencies such as this, and the provision of turnback facilities that might be used only once in a while would be a matter for direction from the DfT, as Network Rail's owners. As with anything, someone has to pay for it, and if it isn't going to be used on a regular basis, it would be difficult finding an economic case for it.

 

Jim

[jjb1970]

Having checked the Sectional Appendix, it would appear that the last point at which trains heading towards Euston could sensibly be reversed is Milton Keynes. South from there, the railway is essentially just a plain four track line with nothing more than fast to slow crossovers at intervals all the way to Euston. Watford North junction, which was really only a fast/slow crossover set is operationally non-existent (and I am fairly certain parts of it are plain lined), and Watford South junction is just another crossover set. None of the platforms are shown as having any reversibility (apart from the terminal platform 10, which faces Euston anyway).

 

In essence, it could be said that the railway is no longer laid out for contingencies such as this, and the provision of turnback facilities that might be used only once in a while would be a matter for direction from the DfT, as Network Rail's owners. As with anything, someone has to pay for it, and if it isn't going to be used on a regular basis, it would be difficult finding an economic case for it.

 

Jim

I find that a bit disappointing. Watford Junction is a natural contingency point for services to Euston as it gets people into the Greater London area with options for the overground, underground and even buses (if you know the bus system) and taxis. I'd have thought Watford a more logical place to design in reversibility than Milton Keynes which has no real connections other than the extremely limited Marston Vale service (which goes from Bletchley, not MK Central) or replacement buses to Luton.

[jim.snowdon]

Notwithstanding that at one time, Watford Junction probably could have handled train reversals from the North, the only practical escape route for the West Coast main line south of Coventry was via the Bletchley - Oxford line that would have allowed trains to reach Paddington, albeit by a circuitous route. One day, that may be reinstated, but with the present hiatus on electrification, probably without wires, which isn't much use for the WCML's electric trains, and since they don't have proper drawgear (buffers and drawhooks), even dead hauling them requires specially equipped locomotives that no-one will want to pay for just to have on standby. It is all, I suspect, a consequence of the lack of joined up thinking that has bedevilled Britain's railways ever since the beginning, and is still with us.

 

Jim

[Pannier Tank]

 the only practical escape route for the West Coast main line south of Coventry was via the Bletchley - Oxford line that would have allowed trains to reach Paddington, albeit by a circuitous route. 

 During the 1960s rebuild of Euston Station, weekend closures produced diversions from Bletchley to Marylebone via Claydon LNE and Priinces Risborough.

[jim.snowdon]

 During the 1960s rebuild of Euston Station, weekend closures produced diversions from Bletchley to Marylebone via Claydon LNE and Priinces Risborough.

Via the 1940 connection that is still in use (and, of course, not shown on the pre-group atlas I was using).

 

Jim

[jjb1970]

If you get people to Watford it may not be necessary to divert trains all the way into Euston if there is disruption. I think it depends on the passengers but a large number of regular Virgin and LM passengers would feel comfortable enough to make their onward journey from Watford and would probably find it quicker than using a diversionary route from MK to London. That said, for travellers not familiar with Greater London I think being de-trained at Watford would be like being de-trained on the moon.

Another factor in this is that there are some very busy stations between MK and Watford used by 1000' who rely on the railway to get to work each day.

[Fat Controller]

Via the 1940 connection that is still in use (and, of course, not shown on the pre-group atlas I was using).

 

Jim

I thought the section of line west of Bletchley towards Calvert was out-of-use, and had lost most of its track to unofficial removal.

[Trog]

I thought the section of line west of Bletchley towards Calvert was out-of-use, and had lost most of its track to unofficial removal.

 

The out of use section ends a few hundred yards the Bletchley side of Claydon LNE junction. The rest of the line to Oxford, the chord line and the old GC mainline south of Clavert North Junction to Aylesbury are still open and in use. Although the GC track is in a very run down condition, some of it was still laid in 1920's LNER 45'-0" bullhead the last time I was down there.

[jim.snowdon]

I thought the section of line west of Bletchley towards Calvert was out-of-use, and had lost most of its track to unofficial removal.

At the moment, it is, although it is due to be reinstated as part of the East-West Link. The section between the Calvert connection and Oxford is all intact according to the current Google mapping images.

 

Jim

[Fat Controller]

At the moment, it is, although it is due to be reinstated as part of the East-West Link. The section between the Calvert connection and Oxford is all intact according to the current Google mapping images.

 

Jim

It's the bit between Calvert and Bletchley that is largely absent. Someone on here (Big Jim?) published some images a while back. The bit between Oxford and Bicester has been completely renewed, with a completely new west > south connection for Chiltern's new Oxford- Marylebone service. Beyond that, as far as Calvert, the line has carried waste for disposal at the former brick-pits.

[Pannier Tank]

It's the bit between Calvert and Bletchley that is largely absent. Someone on here (Big Jim?) published some images a while back. The bit between Oxford and Bicester has been completely renewed, with a completely new west > south connection for Chiltern's new Oxford- Marylebone service. Beyond that, as far as Calvert, the line has carried waste for disposal at the former brick-pits.

 

My reference to the Bletchley to Claydon LNE section was during the 1960s. Of course that route is currently unusable. The line was relaid a few years ago between Bletchley (Denbigh Hall Jcn / Fenny Stratford Jcn) to the what was the location of Newton Longville Signal Box (old London Brick Company Sidings) and is now known as Swanbourne Siding.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Pannier Tank

[The Johnster]

I don't think any of us are arguing that the railway shouldn't have been closed, but on the length of the closures put in place these days. The railway is no longer set up to do anything other than run when there are no problems. The contractual culture / delay attribution or whatever is in vogue these days / not in the script so I can't do it attitude doesn't allow 

 

Straying off  topic, roads are no better these days mainly due to too much traffic, too liitle investment and no management of the system when things go wrong. Today yet another accident leading to delays on M62 westbound over the top, third time this week I think.. There isn't a plan to manage the traffic when it happens. Drivers check SatNav and go via Woodhead. I was out on the hills and could see the queue for Mottram traffic lights stretching right back up Longdendale. Checking the Highways England report I found that the back of the queue was around Woodhead summit, about 11 miles back from the lights. People in jam turn off through Glossop only to find they are in another jam waiting to rejoin the first one. They then turn off and gridlock Broadbottom or Marple trying to divert to Stockport. 

 

The root cause is the country doesn't have a transport plan, hasn't had one except in wartime and things are unlikely to change in my lifetime or several others after it until the fuel runs out and congestion solves itself.

 

Rant over. Sorry, I've been fitting loco details and and have ended up in Grumpy Old Git mode. Time for bed said Zebedee.

 

 

As I indulge in the occasional rant myself, I appreciate that Grumpy Old Git is a valid mode and no apology is needed as far as I'm concerned.

[anroar53]

Just as a bit of light relief perhaps the Croxley Link might have helped

 

 

 

Wrong era too

 

Andy.