Mysterious Apparatus on Engine 030.C.815

[844fan]

Hey all,

I've been visiting the Imaginary Locomotives thread and I happened upon a photo of a engine thanks to the discussion being on freelance locos with Gooch Valve Gears and it being used as a example.

 

A lovely engine and no mistake but that device on the side of her smokebox has me intrigued due to it's close resemblance of a Industrial tank built by Henry Henry Hughes. The tank engine is Waverley from the Alderney Breakwater for reference and I've been trying to figure out what the device on the tank is and then I saw this loco. I have a sneaking suspicion I know what 030.C.815's is and if so I'm back at square one on figuring out what it is on Waverley but I st am not 100% sure here so does anyone know what it is on 030.C.815 here?  

[Simond]

At first glance, Westinghouse pump.

 

Zoom in, and the middle "cylinder" has what appear to be cooling fins, which a Westinghouse pump doesn't need. This suggests it's electrical, perhaps a turbo generator, but it doesn't have electric lighting, so why would it need a generator? There could be other things, like pumps, which run hot, and need cooling, hence the fins, or are high pressure and need stiffening ribs, but I'm struggling to think of why they'd be necessary on a steam loco.

 

And there is a further, lower, smaller cylinder, they all appear to be coaxial, suggesting a common shaft rotates or reciprocates within them.

 

So no, I'm guessing.

 

Simon

[Andy Hayter]

I am pretty certain it is a westinghouse pump.  Some came with fins, some without, some single barrel some double.

 

http://www.mecanictrains.fr/140C.htm

 

The pump for the 140C is the first item listed and is clearly finned.

 

Since I am no engineer I cannot explain the benefits or otherwise of fins, but I would guess that temperature (and therefore the degree of superheat) would be an important factor.

[844fan]

At first glance, Westinghouse pump.

 

Zoom in, and the middle "cylinder" has what appear to be cooling fins, which a Westinghouse pump doesn't need. This suggests it's electrical, perhaps a turbo generator, but it doesn't have electric lighting, so why would it need a generator? There could be other things, like pumps, which run hot, and need cooling, hence the fins, or are high pressure and need stiffening ribs, but I'm struggling to think of why they'd be necessary on a steam loco.

 

And there is a further, lower, smaller cylinder, they all appear to be coaxial, suggesting a common shaft rotates or reciprocates within them.

 

So no, I'm guessing.

 

Simon

Yeah that was my thinking too. I've never seen a Westinghouse quite like this and my first guess was a generator as well. Hmm for the tank engine I mentioned it would make sense for a generator to be installed though incase the work place needed a emergency power supply but here it would be kind of superfluous since A. it has no high power head lamps, B. Would most likely use oil lamps, C. I for mainline use and D. you can plainly see it has air brakes from the brake pipe not being ribbed like a Vacuum pump system would need.

 

I think I'll just go with the Generator for my interpretation of Waverley but yeah it is most likely a Westinghouse pump.  

 

I am pretty certain it is a westinghouse pump.  Some came with fins, some without, some single barrel some double.

 

http://www.mecanictrains.fr/140C.htm

 

The pump for the 140C is the first item listed and is clearly finned.

 

Since I am no engineer I cannot explain the benefits or otherwise of fins, but I would guess that temperature (and therefore the degree of superheat) would be an important factor.

I have no explanation for the fins either since like you say I'm not a engineer but based off all my father has taught me on electronics and heat sinks that is most definitely what they are for on this pump. I do find it funny how far forward this pump is placed yet it is also out of the way of the Smokebox door something so many large American designs failed to do with they giant sets at the front essentially blocking the face of the engine. I suppose with oil firing you don't need to clean as much in there but still covering the face of a locomotive is down right barbaric.

[Simond]

Oil fired?

 

It's not an oil pump is it?

 

Best

Simon

[844fan]

Oil fired?

 

It's not an oil pump is it?

 

Best

Simon

No no you misunderstood me. I was talking about large American engines being oil fired thus not having a need to clean a smokebox so larger air pumps could be placed on their front. Like this Blue Ridge https://i.pinimg.com/474x/06/07/29/060729ceec05ad04d4f22f6dc2fd4855--steam-locomotive-national-railways.jpg 

[Simond]

Ah, sorry!

[brack]

Compare the Rio Grande k28 to the same locos built for Hawaii. The Hawaiian locos look vastly better.

[dullsteamer]

The mystery object is an air compressor, but more likely one made by Knorr or to a Knorr design than Westinghouse. It's a tandem compound compressor with low and high pressure air cylinders. A similar compressor is shown here:

 

http://www.bremsenbude.de/seiten/luftpumpe08.htm

 

Air gets hot when it's compressed, hence the cooling fins on the air end of the compressor. Many locos also have radiating pipes to cool the air before it reaches the reservoir.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[dullsteamer]

I do find it funny how far forward this pump is placed yet it is also out of the way of the Smokebox door something so many large American designs failed to do with they giant sets at the front essentially blocking the face of the engine. I suppose with oil firing you don't need to clean as much in there but still covering the face of a locomotive is down right barbaric.

This engine was probably not fitted with air brake when built, so mounting the compressor later would be a matter of finding a convenient place for it where it would be accessible for servicing. Both the steam and air ends of the compressor have lubricators which must be filled regularly, and there are also drain cocks on the steam end that must be opened when starting the compressor to clear any condensate. Many railways used collars to lubricate the piston rod as it passed through the glands, so these have to be changed regularly as well.

 

On this engine the compressor is a long way forward so it doesn't interfere with access to the steam delivery pipe from the regulator to the valve chests.

 

On US engines the reason for mounting the compressors mounted on the smokebox is the same, ease of access - even on coal-fired engines. The almost universal use of Master Mechanics or Cyclone self-cleaning spark meant that the smokeboxes weren't opened often. It was a fairly common arrangement to fit Okadee hinges to the smokebox front plate, allowing the entire unit to be unbolted and swung open.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[EddieB]

These locos were modified in the 1930s and fitted with double acting Westinghouse air pumps.

 

If it helps I do have a b&w photo of the other side of 030.C.815 as preserved, but it's on 120 roll film (well 220 actually) which means a bit of a hassle to scan.  In the meantime, I can say that there is similar piping but no duplication of the typical Westinghouse pump.

[Northroader]

What you're looking at is a Fives Lille air compressor. At the top is the steam cylinder, in the middle the large diameter cylinder is the low pressure stage air cylinder, then the smaller diameter cylinder at the bottom is the high pressure stage for the air. So it's a compound, but on the air side rather than the steam., which makes it look a bit different. Also the air cylinders are cooled by vertical ribs rather than the horizontal fins we're more used to seeing on the Westinghouse pumps.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Northroader

[EddieB]

Having seen the original image on a different screen (and without my contact lenses for distance), I can see that the apparatus differs from the usual Westinghouse. It seems its application was quite widespread, as similar compressors are to be seen on other locomotives preserved in the national collection.

 

However, the information about the fitting of dual Westinghouse air pumps is taken from Davies' listing of Ouest locomotives. which is generally pretty accurate.  Given that the locomotive was built by Wiener Neustadt for the Ouest (later Etat), I'm wondering whether fitting of a Fives-Lille compressor was a modification after being taken into SNCF ownership?