Thameslink and Charter Trains

[D854_Tiger]

This question has been prompted by the site of Big Jim's test train reaching Heathrow recently.

 

Thameslink has always fascinated me, a main line through the very heart of London and the City and not exactly underground either. Yet to my knowledge no loco-hauled charter train has ever ventured that way, could it be done.

 

Also, noting the East London line has effectively become a main line once again would a loco hauled charter be possible that way.

 

Obviously, I'm guessing something on a Sunday or even in the middle of the night.

 

Both routes used to carry main line traffic, specifically the Widened Lines, and freight used to venture along the East London line.

 

Then, might as well get carried away with this theme and ask the big one, Crossrail, how likely is that with a charter perhaps with a electric loco, rather than a diesel.

 

Then, finally, I know something around the sub-surface Underground lines might be possible because it's already been done with steam.

[Redkiterail]

i seriously doubt that a charter with LHCS will run in thameslink core as etcs and ato are required plus the line is I believe still restricted to class 73/33/31 those that fit metro gauge plus the increase frequency across the week and need for engineering works. The need for ATO and ETCS also apples to cross rail tunnels and with the east london line there is a still a reduce loading gauge and the timetable is not yet know also there is platform edge doors in the core which means no train can stop but also pose a risk if a door is left on the catch.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The old route from Farringdon to Ludgate Hill was used quite a lot for excursion traffic and charters.

 

But I can't see it happening these days, for the reasons mentioned above plus the very steep gradients on the new route which are only really suited to multiple-unit trains.

[Edwin_m]

I think non-ETCS trains will still be able to use the Thamelink core by obeying the existing signals.  But there is no way they would want that to happen during passenger service hours!  There's probably also a restriction on diesel operation (eg fire alarms at City Thameslink which is fully underground) and class 92s as the only dual-voltage electric loco are unlikely to be cleared for the route. 

 

As for the East London Line, the connection to the rest of the network at Highbury & Islington is a single track, not electrified, so only really viable for engineering trains. 

[stewartingram]

I can't remember the details, but the Circle has seen a BR charter. Mk2 stock I believe, not sure of the loco. Possibly late (proper)BR, or early sectorization?

 

Stewart

[phil-b259]

Re Thameslink.

 

It does NOT have platform edge doors in the core - the stations not being straight and level making it an impossibility to fit them (the same holds true with most tube lines).

 

The line will retain its conventional signalling even after scheduled Thameslink services have gone over the ATO as a backup - though the frequency such lineside signalling can cope with is only around 12ph as opposed to 24tph when under computer control. As such, given the proposed timetable there simply will not be room for anything other than scheduled services (even on a Sunday).

 

The tunnels still have loading gauge restrictions which bar most stock / locos from them (which is one reason NR / GBRF have hung on to the 73s), and retention tank toilets / toilets locked out of use is a must. Given the reduced clearances window bars would quite likely to be needed to on slam door stock (assuming it fits in the first place).

 

Re ELL

 

Right, firstly the line between Highbury and New Cross is NOT part of Network Rail in any shape or form. Transport for London (TfL) own the infrastructure pair of tracks where the ELL runs parallel to the NLL with Network Rail reduced to simply owning the trackbed at this point. Once the ELL has pealed away from the NLL at Dalston EVERYTHING is owned by TfL right through to where the flyover meets the Up slow just north of New Cross, and just to the south of platform 1 where the ELL joins the Down Slow. Equally signalling and electrical control is managed separately from TfL owned New Cross depot - and in theory TfL could quite easily give the contract to maintain / operate the infrastructure to someone other than NR.

 

Secondly just because the signalling etc is to Network Rail standards it doesn't follow that they are the owner. The line between Putney Bridge and Wimbledon for example is signalled to BR standards (last upgraded i the early 1990s) and is fully integrated into the SWML control centres, yet upon privatisation line ownership was passed to LUL (TfL and the Mayor not existing at that point). Hence every single SWT / SWR / NR train that passes between East Putney and Wimbledon has to pay TfL for the privilege while TfL in turn have to pay Network Rail to look after the signalling and Power supplies, plus hire in contractors certified as competent in NR maintenance / faulting to look after it .

 

Thus charter operators have no right to traverse the ELL under 'open access' rights - if they wish to do so then they will need to get special permission from TfL who are quite within their rights to tell operators to get stuffed with no explanation.

 

As with Thameslink train, frequencies are high (up to 18tph at times) so its extremely unlikely paths are available, though in loading gauge terms it might be a tad better than Thameslink.

[Redkiterail]

when i said platform edge doors I ment the crossrail tunnels

[Titan]

I think most stock would be out of gauge too, particularly as regards height due to the OLE - there is a lower minimum contact wire height compared to the rest of the network.

[DY444]

I think most stock would be out of gauge too, particularly as regards height due to the OLE - there is a lower minimum contact wire height compared to the rest of the network.

 

^This.  There are severe restrictions as to what can traverse the Thameslink core, and those restrictions are even more severe with the ole energised.  Even unit types which have ventured to Smithfield sidings and Farringdon in the past (eg 465, 455) are now banned beyond Blackfriars since the ole was extended to City T/L.

[unravelled]

I believe there was a suggestion that the East London line would be suitable for Networkers. This was supposed to have been after the first closure, when the line was closed for tunnel works and Canada Water station construction.

 

No idea where I read/heard/imagined this..,

 

Dave

[Talltim]

You could always charter a 700...

[TravisM]

I can't remember the details, but the Circle has seen a BR charter. Mk2 stock I believe, not sure of the loco. Possibly late (proper)BR, or early sectorization?

 

Stewart

 

GatEx stock was used, using LT battery loco's top and tailing.

 

Julian Sprott

[Joseph_Pestell]

GatEx stock was used, using LT battery loco's top and tailing.

 

Julian Sprott

I have an idea that LUL has retained some of this GatEx stock for charters.

[TravisM]

I have an idea that LUL has retained some of this GatEx stock for charters.

 

No, it was hired in.  LT's charter stock is a 4-TC set, originally two and the other is now at Butterley on the Midland Railway Centre.  I believe it's stored there on behalf of another preserved railway (Swanage perhaps).

 

Julian Sprott

[St. Simon]

Then, might as well get carried away with this theme and ask the big one, Crossrail, how likely is that with a charter perhaps with a electric loco, rather than a diesel.

 

Hi,

 

No, Crossrail will never see a conventional charter (i.e. loco hauled stock, or at least any of the current / known designs), one because of the Platform Edge Doors and two because of the CBTC signalling (and eventually ETCS Level 3). The only way a charter will happen is if the Class 345's are used to run it.

 

Simon

[russ p]

Wasn't the original idea for crossrail to be a proper railway with intercity trains and freight at night instead of some glorified linear lift

[D6975]

This thread has put images in my mind of a 31 trying to get a long rake of mk2s up the hill to Blackfriars from City TLink....

[dp123]

This thread has put images in my mind of a 31 trying to get a long rake of mk2s up the hill to Blackfriars from City TLink....

 

 

We used to run combined UTU/Track Recording Coach formations (circa 6-7 coaches) through the core with 31s in the past. Nice and loud. OLE isolated, middle of the night.

 

Two EDs on load 4 was entertaining enough, those little diesels have a hell of a bass reverb in tunnels, then switching to the juice to scream up the bank into Blackfriars and right through to Herne Hill to change ends and go back to West Hampstead. Screw down at Cricklewood and off to the hotel for tea and medals.

 

Heathrow was a right giggle with 37s, linespeed in possession and choking out the stations.