Copyright on old recordings

[Dave John]

Ok, this is a question for the sound experts out there. 

 

Lets say that I have a rare record of Caledonian engines in action. Well, I do. Argo Transacord EAF  74 as it happens . There are sound clips on there which can no longer be recorded such as a westinghouse pump in full action. 

 

So if I were to transfer that recording to my computer, remaster it, split it into tracks and the play specific sounds while I am playing trains thats fine I think, personal use.  I have done so. 

 

Now lets say that I send a copy of those tracks to a sound chip expert who puts them on a chip and then makes that available to all interested parties am I infringing copyright? Would anyone in the sound chip business even be interested given the market might run to half a dozen ?

 

Bear in mind that I have no real experience of on board sound, I am asking the question in the vague possibility that someone either tells me that its possible but pricey or that you all tell me I'm an idiot and that I should go back to worrying about the correct number of bolts on scale chairs. 

 

So, opinions gents ? 

 

 

[Pteremy]

Here is a non expert starter for ten

 

- copyright exists in a sound recording, for 70 years

- transferring a sound to chip might be a technical breach of copyright, but if no financial gain from doing so there is no financial loss to the copyright holder. (Was copying from vinyl to tape for personal use strictly a breach?)

- but exploiting the recording by selling chips to others would be making a financial gain at the expense of the copyright holder.

 

If there is a market for what you have in mind, even a small one, i would have thought that the current copyright holder might be interested in supporting/exploiting it. This might even provide access to the original recordings, if they still exist. Perhaps this already happens? Or are commercially available 'steam sounds' all the result to recording preserved locos?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...So if I were to transfer that recording to my computer, remaster it, split it into tracks and the play specific sounds while I am playing trains thats fine I think, personal use.  I have done so ...

Effectively, this point has been conceded now. So long as you retain the source recording - i.e. not sell it on - then using it privately transferred to other media is acceptable.

 

...Now lets say that I send a copy of those tracks to a sound chip expert who puts them on a chip and then makes that available to all interested parties am I infringing copyright? ...

It all depends on whether the copyright term has expired or not. If the copyright term has expired, then you are in the clear. A recording first issued commercially before 31st October 1963 had only fifty years copyright protection which has now expired, and that makes late BR steam operation fairly accessible. (Commercial record companies have cheerfully issued such recordings; the limitation on their activity being availability of a decent condition recording from which to lift the content and issue it on their media of choice; as they don't have access to the recording masters which remain the property in all respects of the owner.)

 

Read all about it!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/copyright-in-sound-recordings/copyright-in-sound-recordings

 

Issue a commercial recording taken from a source which is still in copyright, and if detected then brace yourself to be sued for redress for your act(s) of wanton piracy. That's the theory at least. But when it came to the crunch on a fairly large scale, read the following:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Hatto

 

I have specifically chosen the example from the world of the classical music recording industry rather than 'pop' infringements where there have been some aggressively pursued dust-ups; because certainly as far as the UK is concerned, steam recordings have long had their home in the 'classical' side of the industry.

 

Tangentially, I find it all highly irrational. Ever more extension is demanded for 'copyright', which principally has value because of technology, which only receives the much more limited term of patent protection. It's grossly discriminatory to afford technical invention less protection than artistic invention.

Edited October 11, 2017 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[jamesg]

This sounds like a great idea.  I hope you'll share some footage of the model running with the sound decoder once the technical obstacles have been overcome.

 

I agree with 34C - look at the gov.uk page on copyright in sound recordings.  The duration of copyright protection for sound recordings changed from 50 years (after creation) to 70 years on 1st November 2013.  This was only applied to works that were not in the public domain on that date.  On 1st November 2013, a recording made on 31st October 1963 would already be 50 years old and in the public domain, therefore the 2013 rule would not apply.

 

Usual disclaimer applies - I am not a lawyer.

[Dave John]

Thanks for the advice. The record sleeve says copyright 1963, so it should be ok. 

 

I'll investigate the technical side of things. 

[pauliebanger]

Thanks for the advice. The record sleeve says copyright 1963, so it should be ok. 

 

I'll investigate the technical side of things. 

 

I'll leave copyright and moral questions to the experts in these fields, of whom there is no shortage.

 

There are a number of technical issues to overcome by using old recordings as you propose. Generally speaking, lineside recordings rarely provide sufficient quality for DCC sound purposes. There is just too much 'environment' between sound source and recorder and, with a moving loco, doppler effects often come into play.

 

 

The Transaccord recordings are wonderful and evocative historical records but they are by nature of the 'entire orchestra' when only the sound of the piccolo is required in isolation.

 

That's not to say some 'spot' sounds may be used, but I would be surprised if your Westinghouse pump was recorded in isolation and will therefore almost certainly contain other sounds. Our brains are capable of 'hearing' only the sounds we want to hear by filtering out other background sounds. Recorders do not work in this way (mostly) so everything within range is captured and re created each time the sound is played.

 

What is special about the Caledonian Westinghouse pumps? There are many existing locos with air pumps, many of which have been specifically recorded for DCC sound projects. It follows that Westinghoose pump sounds are usually found on sound projects for loco types which typically had them fitted when in service.

 

Are you asking for something already available?

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Dave John]

Thanks Paulie. 

 

There is a bit of a background to most of the sounds I would be interested in. 

 

All this is a bit long term, my Caley stuff is all dc and some is small, decoders and speakers would need rebuilds. To add to the fun I have several locos which had two westinghouse pumps. 

 

Might all be a bit pie in the sky, but I thought I'd investigate the possibilities.

 

Cheers.