Reversing Beeching

[MarkC]

I think that several factors are against Hawick-Carlisle, at least at present. There are actually 3 cross-border routes already, and as has been mentioned, there is little between Hawick and Carlisle to generate traffic. There's political will, bearing in mind that there has just been a 'local'income tax in Scotland announced, so could this, involving a lot of expenditure, be justified to folk outside of the Hawick area? This also brings up the BCR figure. Tricky.

[Zomboid]

Following the route south of Hawick (which I think might stand a chance of becoming the southern end of the borders line), the line goes through nowhere that would justify a station. Newcastleton is the only settlement bigger than about 12 houses, and that's still tiny. That's the main reason it won't happen IMO.

A new line going via the larger settlements in the area might have more of a chance, but even then the towns might justify platforms on an existing line, but a whole new line to serve them is another matter.

 

Politics also comes into it, inevitably. Why would the Scottish government want to encourage people from Tweedbank, Galashiels and Hawick to go to England to work and spend their money, surely they'd sooner make it easy for them to get to Edinburgh?

Edited December 16, 2017 by Zomboid

[MarkC]

Totally agree, Zomboid. I do think that Tweedbank - St Boswells - Hawick will happen, but that will be it.

[rodent279]

It's another line that probably shouldn't have shut. Like Woodhead, I think had it survived in it's entirety, it would have had a role in todays railway, but probably too far gone now to be worth the effort.

[MarkC]

It's another line that probably shouldn't have shut. Like Woodhead, I think had it survived in it's entirety, it would have had a role in todays railway, but probably too far gone now to be worth the effort.

Out of interest, how much quicker then was it to go via Carstairs from Carlisle to Edinburgh as opposed to via the Waverley route? Even then I suspect that speeds were higher via the Caley route?

 

I suspect that traffic levels and thus potential profitability took a blow when the likes of the Border Counties line etc were closed too.

 

The bottom line, though, was that it was another duplicate route, and in the 1960s that was a big thing against it.

[Northmoor]

Totally agree, Zomboid. I do think that Tweedbank - St Boswells - Hawick will happen, but that will be it.

I agree Hawick might be justified.  Actually, since the (sometimes) justification for re-opening the whole Waverley Route is as a diversionary route in the event of ECML/WCML closure, a better alternative route to England would be Galashiels to Tweedmouth.  It only serves one place of any size en route (Coldstream) but avoids much of the northern ECML.  If the WCML is blocked, you have the G&SW.

 

BTW, re-opening (or even keeping) a line open, just because it is very important for a week, once in every 3-5 years, is nonsensical.  That is the same argument often given for Okehampton-Bere Alston and it doesn't stand up unless you are replacing the affected route.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Northmoor

[Zomboid]

Either route would need to be viable all year, every year, and could then act as a diversion on the occasions when one is needed. The GSW does perform that function for the WCML, and at present the Newcastle to Carlisle line along with the WCML provides the same for the ECML.

 

The Dartmoor route has a stronger case in that respect because there is only one way from Exeter to Plymouth, but a regular daily service between the two via Dartmoor would need to work. It's another one which would probably perform a role now if it hadn't closed in the first place as Okehampton and Tavistock are both biggish towns, but now it has gone it'll be hard to get it back. More likely than Hawick to Carlisle, though.

[rodent279]

BTW, re-opening (or even keeping) a line open, because once in every 3-5 years it is very important for a week, is nonsensical.  That is the same argument often given for Okehampton-Bere Alston and it doesn't stand up unless you are replacing the affected route.

Which might not be a bad idea, given the events of a few years ago!

[APOLLO]

Anyway - what about this for a novel idea ?.

 

https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/11/27/trams-without-rails/

 

Seems to have some merit.

 

Brit15

[caradoc]

To make the Waverley Route a viable diversionary option, not only would Tweedbank/Carlisle need to be rebuilt, but the existing route would need to be substantially improved as well (ie doubling all or at least most of the single line sections), at the expense of great cost and disruption. Plus, route knowledge would need to be achieved and maintained. Opening to Hawick, absolutely; Beyond, I just can't see the justification.

[black and decker boy]

It’s OK, it’s time for Christmas fairytales and fantasy’s

 

I give you this

 

http://www.grandnorthern.co.uk

 

A clueless nimby-esque local without a clue. In response to a question about what surveys they have completed along the route to know what works need to be funded, I got this reply.

 

All structural surveys were undertaken when the line was built in the 1800's. We are not building a new line, we are just re-instating the railway.

 

We expect completion of the new railway to occur within 3 years of achieving financial close

[Coryton]

It’s OK, it’s time for Christmas fairytales and fantasy’s

 

I give you this

 

http://www.grandnorthern.co.uk

 

A clueless nimby-esque local without a clue. In response to a question about what surveys they have completed along the route to know what works need to be funded, I got this reply.

 

All structural surveys were undertaken when the line was built in the 1800's. We are not building a new line, we are just re-instating the railway.

 

We expect completion of the new railway to occur within 3 years of achieving financial close

 

Might cost a little to open out the tunnels to the loading gauge needed to piggyback lorries as in the photo they show on their web site.

[Vanders]

Might cost a little to open out the tunnels to the loading gauge needed to piggyback lorries as in the photo they show on their web site.

It's okay they're only going to drop the trackbed by 700mm. A few men and a couple of shovels is all they'll need.

[Mike Storey]

Anyway - what about this for a novel idea ?.

 

https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/11/27/trams-without-rails/

 

Seems to have some merit.

 

Brit15

 

The AVRT version being developed at Cambridge could be very interesting - perhaps it could replace the crazy guided bus system as well. But range would still appear to be a key problem, despite the rapid charging promised. Nonetheless, if the numbers are true, and trams/light railways could be built for less than half the current costs, this could be a gamechanger for many UK cities.

[MarkC]

It’s OK, it’s time for Christmas fairytales and fantasy’s

 

I give you this

 

http://www.grandnorthern.co.uk

 

A clueless nimby-esque local without a clue. In response to a question about what surveys they have completed along the route to know what works need to be funded, I got this reply.

 

All structural surveys were undertaken when the line was built in the 1800's. We are not building a new line, we are just re-instating the railway.

 

We expect completion of the new railway to occur within 3 years of achieving financial close

 

This makes the nutter scheme to take over the NYMR and rebuild the line through the middle of Pickering on its way to Rillington and York seem *almost realistic...

 

*emphasis being on 'almost'...

[Mike Storey]

It’s OK, it’s time for Christmas fairytales and fantasy’s

 

I give you this

 

http://www.grandnorthern.co.uk

 

A clueless nimby-esque local without a clue. In response to a question about what surveys they have completed along the route to know what works need to be funded, I got this reply.

 

All structural surveys were undertaken when the line was built in the 1800's. We are not building a new line, we are just re-instating the railway.

 

We expect completion of the new railway to occur within 3 years of achieving financial close

 

The most interesting thing about it (unless I have missed it somewhere?) is that the website does not seem to indicate even a target cost of works, but does include a presumed rate of return (c.4.0) based on a single fare for a large HGV of £130, and assumed loading factors for the first few years. The last calculations I can find (RHA) for a 44 tonne triple axled traller HGV costs is about £1 per mile (fuel, tyres and maintenance/oil). At a forty miles, that's about £40. There would have to be a huge amount of additional benefit in other ways (reliability, drivers' hours, accident reduction, carbon footprint etc etc) for such a price to be attractive.

[black and decker boy]

Well the M6 Toll is £11 for a hgv. Very few use it, preferring the congested M6 or A5 so £130 to avoid a little bit of congestion over Woodhead pass or the M62 seems a tad ambitious.

 

I’d like to know how many HGVs actually go Coast to Coast over woodhead compared to how many actually make collections & deliveries within the towns & villages of the Peak District. Let’s not forget the steel industry and quarries etc in this particular Area which will still be wholly reliant on roads even if they did pull off the impossible and reopen the line.

[Zomboid]

I think the pricing strategy is the least of the problems with an idea that thinks the original 18xx surveys mean nothing needs doing now.

[The Johnster]

I'd be willing to bet that this bloke does not work in the transport industry.  The costings are vague to say the least and the idea that 90% of the HGV of the North of England, not just between Manchester and Sheffield, can be removed by re-opening the Woodhead Tunnel is, what's the word I'm looking for, oh, yes, stupid.  The rolling roads of the US, Australia, and Europe that have inspired the scheme work over much longer distances and save considerable haulage costs in fuel, mileage based maintenance, and driver costs.  By the time the lorries have queued to board the train and unloaded themselves at the other end, no time will have been saved over the jams on M62.

 

Woodhead might well be usable for something, but it won't be this!

[rodent279]

Excellent! Best laugh I've had since the City of Truro in BR black spoof had purists spilling their tea over their digestives as they had coronaries!

 

The Pennines aren't exactly the Alps are they? Woodhead Pass it may be, but it's a world away from the Gotthard.

[Northmoor]

Re-opening Woodhead would have been excellent more than 10 years ago, but now the cables are re-routed through the new tunnel, it has got a whole lot more expensive.  If there was ever a right-of-way which should have been protected by law, this was it (and including the loop around Manchester).

 

The much better proposal, from about 20 years ago, was for the Woodhead route to be the fast, direct Berne gauge route between the ports of Liverpool and Hull/Immingham.  But it would still need plenty of subsidy.

[rodent279]

Re-opening Woodhead would have been excellent more than 10 years ago, but now the cables are re-routed through the new tunnel, it has got a whole lot more expensive.  If there was ever a right-of-way which should have been protected by law, this was it (and including the loop around Manchester).

 

The much better proposal, from about 20 years ago, was for the Woodhead route to be the fast, direct Berne gauge route between the ports of Liverpool and Hull/Immingham.  But it would still need plenty of subsidy.

Agree. I think it's too far gone now. For what it would cost, you could probably electrify & maybe quadruple large sections of Hope Valley.

[Suzie]

Lines like a completed Waverley where the full capacity is not used for passenger service have value as a freight route. East coast and West coast are pretty full, so being able to use Settle - Carlisle and Waverley will have value as a complete route and will be able to free up some paths. These paths will be needed for when HS2 is built and the extra Scottish traffic it generates needs to take some of the freight paths on an upgraded 140mph Wigan to Glasgow route.

[MarkC]

Lines like a completed Waverley where the full capacity is not used for passenger service have value as a freight route. East coast and West coast are pretty full, so being able to use Settle - Carlisle and Waverley will have value as a complete route and will be able to free up some paths. These paths will be needed for when HS2 is built and the extra Scottish traffic it generates needs to take some of the freight paths on an upgraded 140mph Wigan to Glasgow route.

Unfortunately, due to the way that the rebuilt section has been done, there's not too much spare capacity on Edinburgh - Tweedbank. Not sure if WCML and ECML are full north of Carlisle & Newcastle, tbh. The ECML in particular is pretty quiet at times during the day.

 

There's still the G & SW from north of Carlisle too. That would be quicker to upgrade than rebuilding the southern part of the Waverley.

 

Still, we will have to wait and see. If the BCR can be shown to be good, then who knows what will happen, but it won't be any time soon, in my opinion.

[Rivercider]

As well as the reopening of lines to reverse Beeching, are there many examples of reopening of stations, (on an existing line), to provide a resurrected local service?

 

Often the problem is that there are no stopping/local trains running to serve a reopened station.

In the West Country I can think of quite a few towns located on or near existing main lines, but with no suitable train to stop there.

Examples of Wellington (Somerset), and Cullompton (Devon), where the aspiration of the respective county councils is to reopen the station,

but at present there is no suitable train service to call. 

 

cheers