Reallocating Functions and Sound Files on a Zimo Decoder.

[Jack374]

Hi all,

 

Firstly, I have posted this here and not in the sound section because my query is about assigning function outputs as well as changing sounds, and more about software and hardware available to do this.

 

I am about to purchase a pair of Zimo MX645R 8 pin decoders, for installation into two ViTrains class 47s. I want to have full control of the lights (i.e. a function button for tail, marker, head and cab for each end, so 8 buttons) and I want to assign the ten function outputs available to these buttons. What software or indeed hardware is available to do this? I’ve seen breakout boards used before, although only with PLUX decoders, and I’ve also seen JMRI Sprog mentioned for reprogramming the decoders. I use a Powercab system, so I’ve got no issue with reprogramming CVs, if this is all it will take. I'll probably assign the lights to high numbered function buttons (such as 20 upwards)...is this still possible with just CV alteration?

 

Also I may need to re-assign the sound files to cater for the extra button space, and I've heard this is a pain with CVs, as multiple CVs have to be altered for one set of sounds. I might delete some sounds which I will never use too, which I assume is easier to do on a computer interface. Which software will be best for this? If this project is successful, I invisage that (over time) I’ll do many more locos in this way, so if it can be achieved using CVs but takes a while, might software be a quicker option?

 

Apologies about the myriad of questions, but I’m a beginner in these things and would really like to learn how to carry out these mods, and implement them in future on other locos.

 

Many thanks in advance,

Jack.

[Nigelcliffe]

You can make any of the changes described with CV adjustments.  

 

You can make all of the changes through the handset of the PowerCab.  Though personally, I find it quite time consuming and fiddly to make complex changes via a handset ( too much button prodding on a small keypad to achieve anything).   If doing it manually, take copious notes of the changes you are making.  

 

You could add computer assistance to the CV adjustments.  There are two main approaches here. 

1. buy the maker-specific hardware (ie. Zimo for Zimo decoders, ESU for ESU), and use that maker's software to make adjustments.  That hardware will also allow updating of decoder firmware, and loading new sounds. 
2. go the "JMRI/DecoderPro" route, which gives a computer interface for CV changes in any make of decoder.   The JMRI route requires suitable hardware to connect the computer to DCC system.   

 

I'd suggest the JMRI route for your requirements as ( a ) its cheaper, and ( b ) it does exactly what you've asked for.    Which then comes to "what hardware".   Two main approaches again from where you start.  Either a stand-alone programming device, where the Sprog is the device to buy in the UK, or the USB/Computer adaptor for the NCE PowerCab.    In your situation, the NCE adaptor might be the better option.   

[Nigelcliffe]

I am about to purchase a pair of Zimo MX645R 8 pin decoders, for installation into two ViTrains class 47s. I want to have full control of the lights (i.e. a function button for tail, marker, head and cab for each end, so 8 buttons) and I want to assign the ten function outputs available to these buttons. What software or indeed hardware is available to do this? I’ve seen breakout boards used before, although only with PLUX decoders

 

Hardware side. 

The 8-pin socket has three function outputs wired through it.  The remainder will have to be added with other wires, so that's 7 more function wires and two speaker wires back to the decoder.    Its debatable whether the 8-pin plug is helping compared to fully hard-wired, but it may make a few things simpler, depends on the details in your locos. 

 

The Zimo manual shows the wired decoder (and I guess the 8-pin) with four functions pre-wired to the decoder (front/rear lights and FO1, FO2).  The remaining six are solder pads on the decoder which require wires attaching.  The same manual shows the PluX22 version with nine functions (front/rear lights and FO1 to FO7) presented at the pins, and the last output (FO8) is on the tag below the "index" pin (the missing pin on the PluX socket).   So, if looking to reduce micro-soldering onto a decoder (I'm fine with it, but many are not), it will be a lot easier to fit a PluX22 socket in the loco and wire to that, only one wire will need to go to the decoder directly.    

[Jack374]

Many thanks for your help on this Nigel, I appreciate it. I’ve just ordered the pair of chips, and I’ve gone with the 8 pin chips because these are the right type for the loco. I’ve got no problem soldering to minute solder pads, so I’ll probably solder another plug on to the decoder. The current circuit board will be redundant, so I’m free to create my own with two sockets.

 

Software side, I’ve looked into the NCE interface, and I think I’ll go with this and the JMRI option as it seems the most logical method. I’ll look into this fairly soon, as I’d like to program the decoders before I install them.

 

Many thanks again,

Jack.

[Jack374]

It’s me again!

 

So, I’ve installed JMRI and got myself an NCE USB interface, and I’ve got them working together now, so I can read decoders and use the throttle etc. However, I’ve read one of the Zimo decoders installed in a ViTrains 47, but I can’t see how to reprogram it. Below are a series of screenshots which show (to me) that two different tabs don’t agreee with each other, insofar as the two function orientated tabs say the function output are assigned to different places. Also it says the volumes of all the F keys are 0, which clearly isn’t the case.

My aim is to reallocate the FOs to different F keys, ideally around the 10 to 18 ish mark. From the screenshots though, it appears that I can only adjust them up to F key 12...is this the case? I’d also like to move the sounds around, however I can’t see how to do this either, so please can someone enlighten me on these two issues.

 

Many thanks in advance,

Jack.

[Nigelcliffe]

If yellow backgrounds, and showing the values you're seeing, they look like the defaults from the decoder file, not the values from your decoder.

 

Are you sure you have READ the loco's CV's in here ?    You need to select "read full sheet" to do this, for each sheet, and do it on the programming track.  And it takes quite a while.

 

 

 

The two different function mapping panes often cause problems, but its one of understanding.   Note on the second it says at the top the selection is "use NMRA mapping", which is what the first pane shows.   If you select the "use alternative method", then the second pane applies.    This is one of those Zimo extensions over standard NMRA limitations, but its also an old extension (at least ten years old), and arguably other methods to move function mapping around are better with more recent Zimo firmware. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Jack374]

Are you sure you have READ the loco's CV's in here ?    You need to select "read full sheet" to do this...

Thanks Nigel, I thought I may have to read the decoder, however if you look at the bottom of the last photo, nothing but the "write..." series of buttons were selectable, the rest were 'ghost buttons' if you like. Also in the CVs tab I wasn’t able to read or compare anything, only write new values, which (unless all values are already read) seems slightly odd.

 

Many thanks,

Jack.

[John K]

If you are not getting a Read option it is likely that you are in POM mode. To read Decoder settings you need to be in Programming Track mode.

John K

[Nigelcliffe]

As I said in my earlier post, and as John K has said,  to read things you need to be on the programming track.   The behaviour you are seeing is for Programming on the Main (also called "operations mode"), which is write-only (no read is possible) on most DCC hardware.      

 

Close the programming window you have open, go back to the JMRI roster, and select the option for programming track (also called "service mode").  Be sure that there are no other locos or decoders (turnouts and the like) connected to your track (which is the entire layout unless you've added additional switching equipment to the PowerCab's output).

 

Once you have the initial values read in, you can then use Programming on the Main to make future adjustments from those values. 

 

 

To read all the CV's in a sound decoder takes quite a long time, assume its going to be 15minutes, and may be a lot more (depends on decoder and DCC hardware).  You will know its being done.  If it seems a long time, compare that to manually pushing the keypad for 600 CV's and writing the result of each one down !

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Jack374]

Many thanks John and Nigel, I’ve tried again with the program set to "use programming track", and all works fine. I’ve successfully moved about the sound files and FOs (all two of them!) on a LokSound V4, and this I understand despite the age it took to read all the CVs. I tried the same with the Zimo decoder too, but before I start I’d like a bit of advice. Having read other threads in this forum, it appears you can use the "Zimo input mapping", but this seems temporary to me, so is there any other way of doing it? Also I still don’t see how to assign the FOs to F keys higher than 12...is this possible?

 

Thanks again for your perseverance with my novice questions!

Jack.

[pauliebanger]

Many thanks John and Nigel, I’ve tried again with the program set to "use programming track", and all works fine. I’ve successfully moved about the sound files and FOs (all two of them!) on a LokSound V4, and this I understand despite the age it took to read all the CVs. I tried the same with the Zimo decoder too, but before I start I’d like a bit of advice. Having read other threads in this forum, it appears you can use the "Zimo input mapping", but this seems temporary to me, so is there any other way of doing it? Also I still don’t see how to assign the FOs to F keys higher than 12...is this possible?

 

Thanks again for your perseverance with my novice questions!

Jack.

 

Jack,

 

You can assign any Function Output to any F key 1 - 28 using 'Swiss Mapping'. This was introduced with decoder software version V32.0 in October 2012, so aything later will have this feature. If not, any ZIMO decoder can be updated with a free download from ZIMO. (This upgradability is one of the reasons for the cost of the decoders)

 

See here for full explanation: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103189-the-zimo-swiss-mapping-thread/?p=2024866

 

Zimo Input Mapping is OK, and there are some good reasons to use it in certain specific circumstances (layering or reversed key operation being just two) but there can be unexpected results for the unwary: (Because it 'moves' everything, sounds or functions or both, from one F key to another, and does not automatically alter what is already assigned to the new F key). But it's no more 'temporary' than any other adjustment made by CV - all can be reversed or reset to project defaults.

 

Personally, I like to understand what changes are being made, what CVs are used to achieve the results I need. I find using the PowerCab handset to be fine on its own to remap functions and/or sounds, but each to their own.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Jack374]

Cheers Paul for pointing this out and your advice...I must admit I thought Swiss mapping was just for special cases, but it appears this is far from the case. I’ve a couple of questions please, firstly do I need to tick the check boxes (I think JMRI calls them 'radio boxes') on the function mapping tab in Decoder Pro, assigning each function an initial F key (1 to 12)? I don’t think I need to because, as I understand it, by using Swiss mapping I will be giving an FO one or more F keys, and vice versa, but please correct me if this is not true. Also, what does using a second FO in one Swiss mapping group entail? I know you eluded to it in your OP on the SM thread, so I can post in there and move discussion over if you’d like it to be in there.

 

I’m currently just gathering information on all the options before I decide what I want...I was originally going to use 8 F keys for 8 FOs, but there seem to be more ways to achieve what I want using SM...lots of brain food!

 

Many thanks,

Jack.

[pauliebanger]

Jack,

 

If you've read the ZIMO manual I can see why you might have gained that impression. Their explanation and the office nickname which turned into the published name for the feature makes it seem 'special case only'.

 

Most of the mapping in the most recent versions of my sound projects is done with SM, It's easier to use one type of mapping rather than mix and match (though it is certainly posible to use Zimo more than one extended mapping options together or woith standard NMRA mapping.

 

There are now also a lot more options with SM than are covered in my original post on the subject. eg, assign different dimming effects for each Function Output if required.

 

If you give an idea of what you will be trying to achieve, I will be able to make some suggestions. Who's Class 47 sound project are you using?

 

Just 'belt and bracers' to avoid mapping conflicts, set CV61 = 97 before you start SM.

 

Ignore all the mapping radio buttons you illustrated (Nigel already alluded to this earlier) and open the Swiss Mapping pane.

 

It is set out pretty clearly. There are now 17 SM groups possible.

 

Think of each group being instructions to assign up to two FOs in each direction of travel to a single F key as required.

 

You can increase the number of FOs assigned to any F key by setting up a second or third (and so on) additional group(s) each with the first CV in each SM group being the same F key number. This can be useful.

 

You can also assign the same FOs to different F keys. This may have some uses but it will be easy to end up with conflict which are tricky to trouble shoot if you are not very careful.

 

Here's a simple set up for directionally controlled marker lights on F key 0 and tail lights, separately controlled with F key 21. Follow the logic and you can achieve any combination required.

 

In most cases you will not need entries in the second column (M-Key).

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Jack374]

Thanks again Paul...the sound projects are actually yours I believe...the Rail Exclusive pair 47790 and 47832. I’ve had a further look tonight and I don’t actually know what I want! Originally I was going to assign an F key to each of 8 FOs, however as these locos won’t be used for shunting (which would require this), I’ve had second thoughts. What’s more, these locos aren’t currently on the workbench, so I’m not going to do this project yet.

 

The only outstanding question I have is how do I move sounds around? I now know SM can be used for functions, but do I have to use input mapping for sounds? As I understand this though, if I repurpose an F key for a lighting FO for example (using SM), when I use input mapping to move the sound this will move the sound associated with that key and the new FO assigned to it, which isn’t what I want!

 

Many thanks for your help,

Jack.

[pauliebanger]

Jack,

 

There's a simple mod you can make to the ViTrains PCB to isolate the tail lamps from the white markers if that's all you want to achieve. With this done, the mapping in the DP pane above will give basic separate control of red and white lamps at each end. This will allow the loco to have front markers illuminated but no red tail lamps when hauling a train.

 

More complex lighting combinations will be possible with extended SM. e.g. reds at both ends (parked) or, no lamps illuminated at one end (next to connected vehicles, 'front' or rear') useful for top and tail workings or consisted locos.

 

Sounds can be moved by CV300 procedure, Zimo Input Mapping or by assigning the sounds with the respective CVs.

 

Which is the best option depends upon several factors, the main one being how many movements you wish to make.

 

Since you have my sound projects installed it will be easy to advise the correct CVs when you tell me what sounds you wish to move to where.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

Edited February 27, 2018 by pauliebanger