3d printed GWR coaches - something big...a D51

[The Great Bear]

On and off over the last few months I've been getting to grips with Autodesk Fusion 360. Very different from Autocad that I'm used to, but I'm slowly getting the hang of it...

 

 

My plan is to use this software for coach designs moving forward, well, fingers crossed...

 

I also got another test print, this time only part of a coach, from the Photocentric printer mentioned above, this time at 50 micron layer and in a hard resin.

 

 

 

The grooves on the door ventilators have come out on this print but that apart the finish isn't discenably better than the 100 micron print. The edges of the panelling are still a bit "soft".

 

If I'd seent this print back in January or even compared with the Shapeways FUD I think I'd be convinced, but not after seeing what can be done after getting the 3d hubs print. So more thinking...

[81E]

Have you thought about breaking down your coach bodies into parts that best fit different materials my Siphon J (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/stafford_road_model_works?section=GWR+Dia+O31%2F40+Siphon+J&s=0) comprises Black Natural Versatile Plastic underframe, White Natural Versatile roof (the roughness can be smoothed by applying several coats of Halfords primer and sanding back) and Smooth Fine Detail Plastic for the body sides/ends where fine detail and a smooth finish is more important? 

 

 

I hope to produce a "proper" coach sometime this year using fine detail for the sides only, probably breaking the body into three parts (solebars+ends, sides and roof) fitting them together along similar lines to the old Hornby-Triang Mark 1 coaches

Edited July 29, 2018 by 81E

[The Great Bear]

Have you thought about breaking down your coach bodies into parts that best fit different materials my Siphon J (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/stafford_road_model_works?section=GWR+Dia+O31%2F40+Siphon+J&s=0) comprises Black Natural Versatile Plastic underframe, White Natural Versatile roof (the roughness can be smoothed by applying several coats of Halfords primer and sanding back) and Smooth Fine Detail Plastic for the body sides/ends where fine detail and a smooth finish is more important? 

 

 

 

I hope to produce a "proper" coach sometime this year using fine detail for the sides only, probably breaking the body into three parts (solebars+ends, sides and roof) fitting them together along similar lines to the old Hornby-Triang Mark 1 coaches

 

Thank you. I've just had a play with Shapeways for a D56 brake third using that approach. Interesting...

 

First, whole body and roof done in Smooth Fine Detail Plastic

A whopping £91.85!

 

Now, using your approach...

 

Sides and ends in Smooth Fine Detail Plastic

£30.62 (which bizarely is cheaper than the White Natural Versitile Plastic at £39.02)

 

 

Roof in White Natural Versitile Plastic

£12.65

 

So £43.62, less than half the price of doing whole thing in Smooth Fine Detail Plastic (FUD was a lot quicker to write!)

 

So for doing stuff in Shapeways this seems a neat approach.

 

I had shyed away from printing with shapeways for the recent coaches because the light sanding needed even with the Smooth Fine Detail Plastic was a pain with a paneled coach. For the smooth sided Multibar Toplights this isn't an issue of course.

 

Just need to crack a more efficient way of doing the underframe and interior if doing via Shapeways...

 

Once again thanks

 

Jon

 

 

.

Edited July 30, 2018 by The Great Bear

[jamespetts]

Have you any plans to make these available on Shapeways or elsewhere?

[Clearwater]

Thank you. I've just had a play with Shapeways for a D56 brake third using that approach. Interesting...

 

First, whole body and roof done in Smooth Fine Detail Plastic

Shapeways D56 Whole.jpg

A whopping £91.85!

 

Now, using your approach...

 

Sides and ends in Smooth Fine Detail Plastic

Shapeways D56 Sides+Ends.jpg

£30.62 (which bizarely is cheaper than the White Natural Versitile Plastic at £39.02)

 

 

Roof in White Natural Versitile Plastic

Shapeways D56 Roof.jpg

£12.65

 

So £43.62, less than half the price of doing whole thing in Smooth Fine Detail Plastic (FUD was a lot quicker to write!)

 

So for doing stuff in Shapeways this seems a neat approach.

 

I had shyed away from printing with shapeways for the recent coaches because the light sanding needed even with the Smooth Fine Detail Plastic was a pain with a paneled coach. For the smooth sided Multibar Toplights this isn't an issue of course.

 

Just need to crack a more efficient way of doing the underframe and interior if doing via Shapeways...

 

Once again thanks

 

Jon

 

 

.

Given the likes of Wizard only provide aluminium extrudes to be cut to length, I personally think that there'd be some demand for quality roofs that are already 57' with the bow ends/rain strips/holes for vents etc.

 

David

[Coach bogie]

Given the likes of Wizard only provide aluminium extrudes to be cut to length, I personally think that there'd be some demand for quality roofs that are already 57' with the bow ends/rain strips/holes for vents etc.

 

David

I am not so sure. David Geen produced resin roof sections complete with rainstrips etc, all you had to do is add vent casting and fix. General opinion on the stand said this was just what is wanted but when it came to paying more than a plastic roof, the interest was not so forthcoming and the vac formed roof remained the main type of roof supplied.

 

Mike Wiltshire.

[Clearwater]

I am not so sure. David Geen produced resin roof sections complete with rainstrips etc, all you had to do is add vent casting and fix. General opinion on the stand said this was just what is wanted but when it came to paying more than a plastic roof, the interest was not so forthcoming and the vac formed roof remained the main type of roof supplied.Mike Wiltshire.

Thanks, in time honoured style I'm conflating my own wishes with those of what I fondly imagine other people think too!

[The Great Bear]

I've got a new toy ,

 

A

 

It's a Phrozen Shuffle XL, out recently and the larger brother of the normal Shuffle having a build voluime of 192mm x 120mm  x 200mm ie just enough for coaches up to 60'. (Damn those 70 footers!) It cost around £1200.

 

Here's it in action

 

Much to my suprise my playing with it has gone well, everything so far has printed, no unmitigated disasters.

 

Here's a E95 Brake Composite just done

 

 

 

 

This one was printed at 100 micron layer thickness (that took 12 hours).

 

Overall I'm happy enough. The print quality seems better, bit crisper than the samples with another printer I got done a while back. Yes it's not as good as the stuff I got done in China but I think it's more or less on a par with Shapeways FUD. The photos do cruelly show some niggles to try and improve on - bit of deformation at the end above and bent steps (more supports needed perhaps?) and the stepping on the sides (may improve with printer or software settings). Oh and I forgot to tidy up where the supports were at the end.

 

So some more testing (all good fun!) is needed to get consistent and hopefully wee bit better prints, but positive so far. I know a few people have asked if I can make the models available, I if can reliably get good results then that could be an option.

 

Watch this space...

 

Jon

[Knuckles]

Looking very good.

 

I've been playing with my recently brought Photon and am havijg the same type of quibbles basee on your picture.

 

Odd diagonal lines and minor warps. Warps are a bit of a pain, hot water can sort bigger ones out but minor ones no, maybe more supports are needed. It has been suggested to me curing speed or shrinkage may be why.

 

Anyway, good luck. Minors aside they look great. The larger build volume is tempting for a future maybe.

[Guy Rixon]

I think it's doing remarkable well for an affordable machine. (Wish it was affordable to me!) The side view is particularly fine.

 

As I've noted before, I think a lot of the end detail could be better done as separate parts. For the steps, you could print the part that's parallel to the coach end and leave slots to glue in brass strip for the treads. The electrical connectors would definitely be better made from wire. The gangways have printed well, but do you really want solid, retracted gangways in the middle of a set of coaches? Surely it would be better to print a separate unit representing coupled gangways that could become part of the close-coupling solution?

 

If the ends were shorn of their solid gangways then the shrinkage and warpage problems might be lessened. 

 

PS: here's an untried idea for coupling a set of gangwayed coaches.

 

1. Print the coaches with gangway doors and mountings but no gangways. Make recesses on the inside of the doors to hold magnets.

 

2. Print coupled pairs of gangways, with hollows where they meet the coach ends.

 

3. Fill the hollows in the gangways with flexible material (foam rubber?), so that the gangways can pivot w.r.t the coach ends. Include in the flexible layers magnets to mate with those inside the coach ends.

 

4. Leave out, or make cosmetic, the drawbar-level couplings, letting a gangway module couple a pair of coaches semi-permanently.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Guy Rixon

[justin1985]

These prints look absolutely amazing! These new DLP /SLA printers really are game changers for modelling compared to FDM printers, and even Shapeways prints. I've also just bought a Photon, which is plenty big enough in build volume as I model in 2mm. 

 

I've been playing around with Fusion360 on and off for a while but still need to get fully to grips with it - I'd be interested to see more about the sketching techniques you use. Especially rainstrips - I managed to create some of these using the project tool from construction panes, but I've only seemed to be able to do it in a pretty trial and error way, rather than being able to work out how to do it systematically. Any tips would be much appreciated!

 

Justin

[The Great Bear]

These prints look absolutely amazing! These new DLP /SLA printers really are game changers for modelling compared to FDM printers, and even Shapeways prints. I've also just bought a Photon, which is plenty big enough in build volume as I model in 2mm. 

 

I've been playing around with Fusion360 on and off for a while but still need to get fully to grips with it - I'd be interested to see more about the sketching techniques you use. Especially rainstrips - I managed to create some of these using the project tool from construction panes, but I've only seemed to be able to do it in a pretty trial and error way, rather than being able to work out how to do it systematically. Any tips would be much appreciated!

 

Justin

 

Thank you, Justin.

 

I've also yet to fully get to grips with the sketching function in Fusion 360.

 

The rainstrips I cheated and imported my earlier effort from AutoCAD. My recollection is I drew them in plan - a large radius arc for each, extruded them vertically upward then copied this several times together with the extruded roof profile then for each strip so that the stips cut through the roof. I then used the solid/intersect command to make series of objects for each strip, the intersection between the roof and the extruded plan of the strip, thus giving it in 3d. I think similar method should work in Fusion 360. So yes, trial and error - a sometimes a fair few steps to get what you want. In Fusion, you can, as I expect you know, track the history of the commands so easily roll back thngs, though it can start to slow things down as the model gets complex so occasionally I end up turning this off.

 

As I'm getting more familiar with Fusion - though far from an expert and some things contiune to baffe me -  I can now generally do most things using the solid editing in Fusion, start with a box, push/pull, fillet, chamfer, combine (merge/cut) with other solids.

 

Good luck!

 

Jon

Edited November 11, 2018 by The Great Bear

[Denbridge]

Thank you, Justin.

 

I've also yet to fully get to grips with the sketching function in Fusion 360.

 

The rainstrips I cheated and imported my earlier effort from AutoCAD. My recollection is I drew them in plan - a large radius arc for each, extruded them vertically upward then copied this several times together with the extruded roof profile then for each strip so that the stips cut through the roof. I then used the solid/intersect command to make series of objects for each strip, the intersection between the roof and the extruded plan of the strip, thus giving it in 3d. I think similar method should work in Fusion 360. So yes, trial and error - a sometimes a fair few steps to get what you want. In Fusion, you can, as I expect you know, track the history of the commands so easily roll back thngs, though it can start to slow things down as the model gets complex so occasionally I end up turning this off.

 

As I'm getting more familiar with Fusion - though far from an expert and some things contiune to baffe me -  I can now generally do most things using the solid editing in Fusion, start with a box, push/pull, fillet, chamfer, combine (merge/cut) with other solids.

 

Good luck!

 

Jon

if you do (hopefully) decide to make these available, would there be an option to provide them without some parts, I'm particularly thinking of the range at connectors,end steps and jumper cables. I'm sure many, like myself would want to replace these and by omitting them it would make life easier. Great work

I've been enjoying watching the developments.

[The Great Bear]

if you do (hopefully) decide to make these available, would there be an option to provide them without some parts, I'm particularly thinking of the range at connectors,end steps and jumper cables. I'm sure many, like myself would want to replace these and by omitting them it would make life easier. Great work

I've been enjoying watching the developments.

Noted   I will do some experiments; omitting the corridor has the benefit of removing a bit of length off the model too, making getting print orientation, supports a tad easier and as Guy noted may help reduce deformation at the ends.

Edited November 11, 2018 by The Great Bear

[kandc_au]

I've got a new toy ,

 

A

 

It's a Phrozen Shuffle XL, out recently and the larger brother of the normal Shuffle having a build voluime of 192mm x 120mm  x 200mm ie just enough for coaches up to 60'. (Damn those 70 footers!) It cost around £1200.

 

Here's it in action

 

Jon,

The coach in this pic....Has it bowed up at the ends or isn't it on a flat surface?

The other question....Do you get much shrinkage with the resin?

 

Khris

[The Great Bear]

Jon,

The coach in this pic....Has it bowed up at the ends or isn't it on a flat surface?

The other question....Do you get much shrinkage with the resin?

 

Khris

 

 

Yes you're right it has bowed, another one of those little niggles. Wonder if to do with the change in section thickness, having the corridor and indeed there is also a little block inside the coach to receive fixing screw from the underframe. There was quite a lot of support to model at the ends so not sure that was the issue.

 

Regarding shrinkage - negligible I think, length of model measured with tape measure spot on with what it should be

 

 

Now just when you think you are getting to grips with this 3d printing business you get this:

 

This is 2nd attempt at printing the interiror for the coach. Cleaning this kind of hiccup up is a pain, having to empty the vat and clean stubborn bits of the failed print off the film, indeed may have marked film in doing this.

 

As to why the print failed, I thought I added a lot more supports followigng previous failure so 4 columns across the width of the coach. The coach body prints safely with just supports down the edges and single row down the middle of the roof (that is necessay, when I tried without it failed) but I guess it's the large flatter area with this. Perhaps I need to increase the thickness of the base of the coach interiror from it's current 1mm (the coach roof section is around 1.5mm thick)? Or I also rotate the body on the long axis a bit?

 

I also didn't add holes in base under the seats, I done this with the printing services to reduce cost a wee bit, but here it would reduce the weight of the part, what the support is trying to hold up.

 

Suggestions welcomed.

 

PS - I stopped the print this morning when I saw it had gone wrong so that's why the supports on the right all are cut in a horizontal line

Edited November 14, 2018 by The Great Bear

[The Great Bear]

Probably overkill on the supports, but at least it worked

 

 

I also increased the size of the support tip which I suspect helped a lot too, perhaps try that with a bit less support - as shown that's a lot of resin being wasted!

[Guy Rixon]

Can we have a close-up of the underframe, please? I'm interested in how the printer copes with the truss rods.

[The Great Bear]

Can we have a close-up of the underframe, please? I'm interested in how the printer copes with the truss rods.

 

Not well enough (yet) is the answer

 

 

The design is the same as I had used when getting the underframes done by Shapeways or Sculpteo in SLA nylon. (As an aside the battery box shape is an old one, have somethign closer to GWR ones somewhere.) I am not sure the trussing is going to work with resin, you can see I tried adding a support maybe more needed. This is probably another area where the more discerning modeller would want to separately add detail, brass section? You can also see the floor has bowed.

 

I'm not sure there's such a thing as a stronger resin? The coach sides I'm finding still have a bit too much flex even after curing and not as stiff as the ones I got by the chap in China.I've tried adding bracing to help keep it in shape until cured, but as the picture below shows, need beefing up a bit. Still, once the props are removed there is bit of flex in the body.

 

 

The coach interor aside from some niggles with supports on the edge of the seats turned out pretty good I think

 

 

I hope I got the paneling right, not any good pictures of this so this is what I have infered through the windows of photos in Russell

 

The deformation on the seat ends is from supports placed there, you can see I haven't snipped all the ends away either.

 

And here's the coach body, another brake composite, this time an E83

 

You can see I removed the end details for this design as suggested. Again pity I didn't snip off the remanants of the supports. The photo also cruelly shows other minor blemishes/niggles in the print, the little gouge in the first door being the worst. When the excitement of printing has faded a bit I should paint these up and assemble and see how they look on the layout; in the real world suspect it will look fine. (Or my less than perfect painting/lining will distract the eye!) Despit removing the corridor the bottom of the end is still bowed, though the card the print is on makes it look worse.

 

Thanks for the continued interest shown.

 

Jon

Edited November 15, 2018 by The Great Bear

[The Great Bear]

I'd love to be able to report that I'm making good progress...but in the last couple of weeks no end of problems.

 

The FEP (plastic) sheet on the bottom of the resin vat tore during a print and I got resin cooked onto the lcd screen or its protector I think. I managed to get that off but still a mark in one bit of the lcd, hmm. Since then for a variety of reasons 2/3 of prints have failed, including not sticking to the build plate - which initially all worked well. Today another failed print and more gunk on the lcd, but testing with water doesn't show a leak in the vat so a tad bemused.

 

The mess on the printer

 

Part of the print in question

 

This shows some other niggles even on thigns that print - horizontal banding on large flat near vertical areas, the upper sides. This isn't the print layers, the model was printed at 47 degrees to the horizontal (orientation very constained so as to fit in the build volume). Also the stepping in the tumblehome.

 

One minor bit of progress is I realised what was causing the diagonal lines in the print in the post above - they coincided with the ties I'd added between the coach sides to try and keep them better in shape. Removing them fixes that, and a dip in hot water in the sink with the sides clamped to a straight edge then gets them (pretty much) straight.

 

Still haven't got an underframe to print right yet, the trussing is a real challenge.

 

All very frustrating at the moment!

[Denbridge]

I'd love to be able to report that I'm making good progress...but in the last couple of weeks no end of problems.

 

The FEP (plastic) sheet on the bottom of the resin vat tore during a print and I got resin cooked onto the lcd screen or its protector I think. I managed to get that off but still a mark in one bit of the lcd, hmm. Since then for a variety of reasons 2/3 of prints have failed, including not sticking to the build plate - which initially all worked well. Today another failed print and more gunk on the lcd, but testing with water doesn't show a leak in the vat so a tad bemused.

 

The mess on the printer

 

Part of the print in question

 

This shows some other niggles even on thigns that print - horizontal banding on large flat near vertical areas, the upper sides. This isn't the print layers, the model was printed at 47 degrees to the horizontal (orientation very constained so as to fit in the build volume). Also the stepping in the tumblehome.

 

One minor bit of progress is I realised what was causing the diagonal lines in the print in the post above - they coincided with the ties I'd added between the coach sides to try and keep them better in shape. Removing them fixes that, and a dip in hot water in the sink with the sides clamped to a straight edge then gets them (pretty much) straight.

 

Still haven't got an underframe to print right yet, the trussing is a real challenge.

 

All very frustrating at the moment!

Would it be worth experimenting with printing coaches as a set of parts rather than complete bodies?

[The Great Bear]

Would it be worth experimenting with printing coaches as a set of parts rather than complete bodies?

I've seen what Mike Trice has done with Shapeways FUD in that vein.

 

For now, well until the whole coach proves impossible, that doesn't interest me. My time and skills are limited and painting adding transfers and fine details to the coach are enough, Yes probably assembly is the easy bit but don't underestimate my ineptitude with superglue! I also liked the proposition if I were to sell my wares of minimal assembly (not quite "just paint" but not far off).

 

The stuff I had from the chap in china via 3d hubs (see here)shows that it should be possible.Now that chap has a professional printer a lot of experience but if could get close to that I'd be happy enough

Edited December 4, 2018 by The Great Bear

[kandc_au]

I understand your wants BUT, the suggestion to do it in parts does make sense, at least until you can master the process.
The guy in China NOT ONLY has a professional machine, but also experience, that comes from a lot of printing.
To me, the current situation seems to be costing you a lot of money in failed prints and NO gain in the learning process!
Given it seems you would like to make some money out of this, or at least break even, it would appear to me that the best way forward for you is to split it into parts and start to make some monies to at least help pay your way for the models you want. That way you get the experience (and I would not be surprised at some failures even them) while not on a complete loss making learning curve.
As for being inept with superglue....we are all inept at times but again with experience using it we master it.
In my sixties I am still learning about mastering it!

You will get there, and I for one, look forward to your success!

Khris

[Denbridge]

I've seen what Mike Trice has done with Shapeways FUD in that vein.

 

For now, well until the whole coach proves impossible, that doesn't interest me. My time and skills are limited and painting adding transfers and fine details to the coach are enough, Yes probably assembly is the easy bit but don't underestimate my ineptitude with superglue! I also liked the proposition if I were to sell my wares of minimal assembly (not quite "just paint" but not far off).

 

The stuff I had from the chap in china via 3d hubs (see here)shows that it should be possible.Now that chap has a professional printer a lot of experience but if could get close to that I'd be happy enough

it was merely a suggestion that may increase your success rate.

[The Great Bear]

A belated happy new you to all!

 

So, several steps backward and a couple forward in the last two months. Three things I've managed to improve, mostly taking ideas from http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139818-3d-printing-in-2mm-scale/

• Remove the diagonal lines visible in post 169; I realised these were from the props I'd added between the model sides to increase rigidity of model until cured
• By having a lot more closely spaced props (every few mm) the marks on the side went but model sides end up being stiff it props left in until cured under UV lamp,they then pop out nice and easily, just some sanding on base of side and inside edge needed
• I experimented a lot with twisting the model, the larger the twist the smoother the sides. I've settled on 25 degrees, which I can just get away with without having to add supports to the sides of the coach which then would be a pain to get off
• Currently tryin a resin by Amera labs for LED printers which has benefit of being water washable. (I had a bad reaction to Isopropyl Alcohol in December, whilst cleaning resin vat and build plate I got a lot of IPA on my trousers, which then soaked into my skin over some time causing a reaction. Take care, don't just think it evaporates away like I did.)
• This new resin also has less shrikage, which seems to reduce warping in the coach ends too.

Body props, lots of them.

They pop out easily enough after curing, having done their job.

 

So onto a sample of the coaches I've been printing in the last month or so

 

A K22, I printed thisat 30 degree twist with supports on one side

 

I didn't like having the supports on the side and having to sand them off, you can see the remants of them, I am not very patient. This print was done with Monocure Rapid Resin, I tried that for a while but never really got it "dialed in" giving results to my satisfaction.

 

Onto a more recent print, something a bit obscure, a D88, conversion of ambulance train stock.

This and what follows all using the Amera labs resin. I am liking it.

 

3/4 shots of the sides of the coach, showing a pretty smooth finish to the tumblehome

I think the missing corners is carelessness after the print. I also rather overdosed the primer on the ends - what happens why you try and do this at night under an outside light and torch!

 

 

This second shot shows one of the areas for improvement, this is the end neares the buld plate so you can see where the supports were. Not that I've made much effort here to clean them up. I need to give this aspect some thought, position the supports better to allow for their removal and not interfere with details - so don't put on the ribs of the panelling, Also, and noting comments made in this thread about leaving off the details, I'll give that another go it should make the support placement easier too.

 

The Amera resin seems to have less shrinkage issues too, the ends of the coaches are less bowed vertically, pretty much flat, whereas with other resins this was really noticeable,

 

Another coach obscurity, an E94 Brake Composite, of which only 3 were made (but having done an E95 this was an easy change)

 

Only just noticed the scar by the right of the middle toilet. Looking at the photo of the print on the machine, looks like I may have done it after the print. Annyoing! I suppose a bit of filler would fix. Hmm

 

A 3/4 view. Very minor stepping can just be made out on this side. I only noticed it in the photo, I made no attempt to sand it. The very lightest of sanding would remove this I'm sure.

 

The other side is smoother

 

And finally a side on shot showing the detail

 

So, it's slowly moving forward. With regard to the bodies it's sorting out the end detail and supports left to address.

 

The other big issue is resin usage, not least that the models need a lot of supporting structure. I am trying to optimise this, but it's a trade off against failed prints. The interiror seems to be a particular challenge needing a lot more supports than I thought. With body, interior and underframe I reckon I'd only get 4-5 coaches per 1kg bottle of resin.

 

Reliabillity and repeatability is another challenge, trying to work out why things have gone wrong, what works and why.

 

Right now more immediate challenge is last print managed to get a lot of gunk on the LCD screen, well just it's protecting film hopefully so I need to try and replace that.

 

Meanwhile I have a good stock of coaches, albeit not all perfect but will do as layout pieces for my use, to paint up, Oh and I need to find the layout under all the junk associated with this printing malarkey - paper towels, rubber gloves...

 

All the best

 

Jon

Edited January 20, 2019 by The Great Bear