Graham Farish Class 08 Current version noisy after DCC Conversion

[Paul-H]

Hi all

 

Got a bit of a problem I need some help with

 

I have two new Farish Class 08 shunters that were fully run in on DC prior to converting them to DCC, these are their current version with the new easy to convert motor so no digihat needed. I used Lenz silver mini+ decoders and mounted the decoders in the cab roof with motor wires passing through a small hole drilled in the bulkhead.

 

Both still run nice and smooth and quiet on DC but if I try to run them on my DCC layout they both sound like coffee grinders with quite poor slow speed performance.

 

Anyone got any thoughts as to why they should be so noisy with poor slow running on DCC when they are both fine on DC, any settings I need to change to improve their running on DCC.

 

Thanks for any help with this

 

Paul

[WIMorrison]

Try changing CV50 to 32 which switches on EMF, on some of my motors this makes it them smoother.

 

Then try 33,34,35, and 36 in CV50 - these change the motor type (don’t ask what the values 1-5 mean) these this can quieten a noisy motor. Once you get this as quiet and smooth using these values try adding 128 to the final value as this changes the frequency from 23khz to 19khz and sometimes that can help.

 

Essentially playing with CV50 can make a significant difference on the Silver Mini

 

http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/Manuals/silvermini.pdf

 

Edit - should have said that you should change these by doing ‘program in main’ to see the effect as you change them - doesn’t really work on programming track. Also helps if you add 8 to whatever you have set in CV29 as this sets on Railcom which will allow you to read the CV values when doing POM in real time (and it programmes the decoder much faster ) but be aware that sadly not all equipment works well with Railcom

Edited March 12, 2018 by WIMorrison

[Paul-H]

Thanks for the reply

 

Got them both running quite smoothly on the test track now having adjusted CV50 to 32 so thanks for the help with this

 

Interestingly I read what CV50 was before I started and out of the box they were both set to 123 what ever that means as I couldn't figure it out from the listed options

 

Thanks again for your help with this

 

Paul

[WIMorrison]

It was set to

 

Bit 6 (64) control off - I dont know what this means

Bit 5 (32) EMF on

Bit 4 (16) activate push pull on - why was this on?

Bit 3 (8) Railcom on

Bit 2 (4) off

Bit 1 (2) on

Bit 0 (1) on

 

meaking it a motor type 3

 

try going back to 53 to try the motor type 3 and 61 if you want Railcom on again, but if you don't use it then no point

 

Glad you have it running better now though

 

Iain

[Paul-H]

53 was even better, you are a star 

 

Paul

[Paul-H]

Well something bizzar has happened, after running around without a hitch, I was doing a practice session getting used to using the Dapol Easi-shunt couplings and within seconds both Lenz decoders died, did an autopsy on both and found nothing amiss with the installation and all other locos sitting on the layout were fine. Removed the decoders and tested them on the decoder tester and both died in the same way, that is dead but if F0 pressed the motor runs flat out.

 

I had no more Lenz decoders so put Gaugemaster decoders in both of them, they are both now running again but not a smooth as with the Lenz.

 

Interestingly if I run them on DC they run fine but on DCC they back to being rough running and noisy at slow speeds,, I tried all the settings that worked with the Lenz decoders but that did nothing for the Gaugemater decoders.

 

Any thoughts on what to try next.

 

Paul

[DCB]

Is the DC wall wart and resistor full wave DC or is it PWM.  If the former try it on PWM to to get an accurate baseline as it might just as easily be a mechanical issue rather than DCC.   

[Paul-H]

After further testing i have found something interesting regarding the rough running with the Gaugmaster decoders.

 

My normal DCC Controller is a Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance2 but after talking to someone at a show yesterday who had a couple of smooth slow running class 08's on their layout I tried running my locos with my layout controlled by my Sprog3 and was surprised to find they both ran very smoothly. Not sure why that should make a difference though, I have one other decoder thst will fit, as CT decoder so will give that a go in one of them today to see if that makes any difference.

 

Paul

[Paul-H]

Just replaced the Gaugemaster decoder with a CT DCX76 and quite surprising how improved to slow running is with this decoder over the Gaugemaster and Lenz decoders I have tried, so just ordered another one for the other 08 as well.

 

Running on my Spog3 controlled setup is still faultless but less than ideal on the gaugemaster, I tried both my original Advance and the new Advance2 and get less than ideal smooth slow running with both, I wonder if its time to try something newer in design.

 

Anyone got any personal recommendations, I prefer the hand held walkabout system like Gaugemaster use, what would you recomend, Lenz, NEC something else?

 

Paul

[Izzy]

I have a Gaugemaster PA2 and use lots/mostly CT decoders with my 2mm locos including converted Farish 08's. At the default cv settings CT's come with these locos should run fine 'out of the box', they have a small normal can motor and not the newer coreless type. Just remove the circuit board as I have recommended on another forum and hardwire directly to the motor terminals. If you have altered the cv's re-set the decoder.

 

Mine run no differently/better on my Sprog2/JMRI than on the PA2. I do set Acc/Dec to between 30-50 to smooth out the jumps between steps that can sometimes occur but this is all I do, except set the address. Because the CT's give such excellent slow speed running I usually use 28 speed steps as this gives as good/better control than most other decoder makes - save perhaps Zimo - can produce on 128SS.

 

If you are not getting the best control out of them using the PA perhaps it needs looking at by Gaugemaster. I belive older versions can be given firmware updates should that be an issue.

 

Izzy

[Paul-H]

Thanks Izzy

 

Will remove the motor PCB from the second one when the decoder arrives and do a comparison

 

My GM Pro2 has just come back from gaugemaster following a repair so would assume they also loaded the latest firmware if it was needed.

 

Do you know how to find out whats loaded so I can check.

 

Might also order a few decoders to keep in stock as they do seem to be in short supply for some reason. 

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[Izzy]

Thanks Izzy

 

Will remove the motor PCB from the second one when the decoder arrives and do a comparison

 

My GM Pro2 has just come back from gaugemaster following a repair so would assume they also loaded the latest firmware if it was needed.

 

Do you know how to find out whats loaded so I can check.

 

Might also order a few decoders to keep in stock as they do seem to be in short supply for some reason. 

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

If you haven't removed the boards I am sure you will find that is the key, whatever decoder type you fit. Some can cope better than others but my experience has been, with any locos that aren't fitted with lights and irrespective of whether they are DCC ready or not i.e. the Farish Jinty and 4F    http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82934-farish-jinty-2fs-dcc-jinty-update-4f-2fsdcc-conversion/ as well as all the small diesel shunters, 03/04/08 etc, that removal of the boards is essential to get decent running under DCC whatever decoder make/type. Others don't seem to have these problems it seems, so it might just be me. I am I must admit rather pedantic when it comes to running qualities in terms of control and reliability.

 

CT decoders seem to have the edge over Zimo in respect of absolute running quality/motor control when it comes to 2mm/N, and are certainly smaller, but in recent times have become harder to obtain. Due to issues with them it seems Coastal DCC - my usual supplier - have stopped selling them. I believe Digitrains still has them, but Youchoos is another who no longer seems to deal in them. Rather a pity, but there you go, such is life.

 

Izzy

[Paul-H]

Hi Izzy

 

Just wanted to double check, when you say remove the board, you are talking about the one in the end of the motor can arn't you. The one with the SMD's

 

Paul

[Izzy]

Hi Izzy

 

Just wanted to double check, when you say remove the board, you are talking about the one in the end of the motor can arn't you. The one with the SMD's

 

Paul

 

Yes Paul, they are just soldered onto the end of the motor via the motor brush tags. So a quick touch with an iron on each tag gets them off.

 

Izzy

[Paul-H]

Hi Izzy

 

Both PCB's have been removed one with the DCX76 decoder fitted and the other with the Gaugemaster DCC21 decoder fitted

 

And what a difference in their running, its like night and day, super smooth and super slow

 

Thanks again for your help

 

Paul

 

DCX76 fitted, this is probably the best decoder to use for this as its a single sided PCB so much thinner than the Lenz mini and small gaugemaster decoders so can sit next to the gearbox with the others it meant either removing material from the inside of the body or doing as I did and mounting them in the cab

 

 

Just in case anyone else stumbles across this before doing their own conversion this is the PCB that needs removing from the end of the motor

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Paul-H

[Izzy]

Paul, glad you got them sorted, and many thanks for confirming the difference removing the boards actually makes. Having read many times it won't/shouldn't make any difference at all I have often wondered if I was living in an another reality!

 

cheers,

 

Izzy

[Paul-H]

Mind you even now its quite obvious the the DCX76 is smoother than the Gaugemaster DCC21 so will be swapping that out for the DCX76 when it arrives in a few days, will then get a few in stock as fewer and fewer dealers are stocking them for some reason, i know their sound decoders had issues which is a shame as they were a tad smaller than the smallest ESU & Zimo decoders so could be squeezed in places its almost impossible to fit decoders from other makes but not heard anything but praise for their motor control decoders.

[Paul-H]

Here is an odd one using the DCX76

 

Anyone know why if I use my Gaugemaster Prodigy to change CV5 to eg 160 to limit the top speed it also changes CV1 to 160 and then cannot change CV1 back. But everything programs fine using decoderPro and sprog3

 

These are the only decoders that do this and it's the same with both of the ones I own.

 

Anyone else notice this odd behaviour.

 

Paul

Edited April 9, 2018 by Paul-H