RMweb Gold imt Posted April 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) The siting of the posts in photo 2 looks OK, they need to be at the least at the toe of the points they control. The loco will be a little further back from that. On the first photo the post for Platform 5/Goods arrival will need to be where the red mark is where the fish plates are, remembering that the signal should be on the LEFT of the loco where possible, but variable to obtain best sighting position. Assuming you are NOT having "cash registers" (as described above) you are going to have a forest of signals UNLESS you decide to restrict the routes available from any one signal (all shunting from P3/4/5 only to Relief say? Or only a single sub for shunting/access to Pilot siding on the basis that the moves are obvious and different and the pilot would know where it was going). You could consider having only ONE main departure arm to cover all exits from the platform, but that might be unusual on a larger station like yours. For the full fig I think something like this. The signals on P5 (facing direction of travel) would need to be a bracket with sub to the left for entry into the yard and the central main arm reading to the Relief line with 2 subs below reading upper to shunt on Relief lower to the Pilot siding. The signals on P4 and 3 (facing) would need to be a bracket with shorter main arm to the left reading to the Relief line with a subs below reading shunt on the Relief and lower to the Pilot siding and Main arm to the right leading to the main line with a sub below that reading to Shunt on the main line. I hope someone will come along and give some advice on how these decisions can be made. Edited April 28, 2018 by imt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2018 Have you been at the bottle again Mike ? Hic ! F.Umbsup Been all at sea and still getting back my landlegs probably Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2018 Hi Just having a play with images on my Cambrian Street forum...but repeated here for signalling purposes which are incorrect for sure..only to highlight ideas...? 102_1506aa.jpg 102_1526aa.jpg Bob Bob the first thing you need to get your head round is that where there is a facing point in a situation like that then inevitably there will be a signal at the toe of it. But there might well be another one towards the fouling point where that line joins the one from the other platform in order to cater for longer trains. The big problem you face with the platform starting signals is the multiplicity of routes which they can read to, there are various ways to tackle that problem but there are two very relevant things to consider. The first is that what you provide needs to reflect GWR/WR signalling practice at the time the signals are assumed to have been provided because the ways of. catering for that sort of situation changed over the years. The second thing you must, in my view, consider on a model railway, is trying to avoid the 'forest of signals' or oversignalled appearance which can come from very diligently following specific real world signalling conventions. Although these might sound irreconcilable - and sometimes are - there can be ways round it by producing something which 'looks right' but might not be absolutely right. The particular problem you face is that you have a complex track layout which will inevitably need lots of signals so the trick is then to try to make them not overwhelm everything else. If we assume your 'late steam era' setting I think it not unreasonable, with that track layout, to follow GWR/WR standards of post mid 1930s and then to go Post War in order to make somethings even simpler. that could still fit with a layout of that complexity and unless you really want signals with timber posts I would go early-mid 1950s for a signalling date. That immediately means the Home Signals approaching the terminus on each line will have a single running arm plus a mechanical ('cash register') route indicator with, probably, a subsidiary Calling On arm to read to the platform lines anda. co-located ground disc disc to read to the yard. The platform starting signals for Platforms 1 & 2 would be a staright post job with a single running arm and a co-located ground disc (or possibly elevated on the signal post) to read to the Loco Headshunt; the connections to the spur lines at the inner ends of those platform would be worked by ground frames (released from the signalbox). Platforms 3 &4 would either, again, have a single running arm plus a route indicator or be splitting signals with two running arms - one to read to each of the departure lines - plus a disc to read to the Loco Siding. The awkward one is Platform 5d and here comes the risk of creating a forest unless you are prepared to accept it will only ever be used by a short train which can stand in rear of the facing point towards the yard area - I think that would be the optimum answer provided you can accept the restriction on train length. Exit from the yard would be similar but would use a short arm to read out onto the Relief Line. One or two points in teh layout would need ground discs at their toe for both shunting purposes and to assist in 'route holding' for train movements. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Bob the first thing you need to get your head round is that where there is a facing point in a situation like that then inevitably there will be a signal at the toe of it. But there might well be another one towards the fouling point where that line joins the one from the other platform in order to cater for longer trains. The big problem you face with the platform starting signals is the multiplicity of routes which they can read to, there are various ways to tackle that problem but there are two very relevant things to consider. The first is that what you provide needs to reflect GWR/WR signalling practice at the time the signals are assumed to have been provided because the ways of. catering for that sort of situation changed over the years. The second thing you must, in my view, consider on a model railway, is trying to avoid the 'forest of signals' or oversignalled appearance which can come from very diligently following specific real world signalling conventions. Although these might sound irreconcilable - and sometimes are - there can be ways round it by producing something which 'looks right' but might not be absolutely right. The particular problem you face is that you have a complex track layout which will inevitably need lots of signals so the trick is then to try to make them not overwhelm everything else. If we assume your 'late steam era' setting I think it not unreasonable, with that track layout, to follow GWR/WR standards of post mid 1930s and then to go Post War in order to make somethings even simpler. that could still fit with a layout of that complexity and unless you really want signals with timber posts I would go early-mid 1950s for a signalling date. That immediately means the Home Signals approaching the terminus on each line will have a single running arm plus a mechanical ('cash register') route indicator with, probably, a subsidiary Calling On arm to read to the platform lines anda. co-located ground disc disc to read to the yard. The platform starting signals for Platforms 1 & 2 would be a staright post job with a single running arm and a co-located ground disc (or possibly elevated on the signal post) to read to the Loco Headshunt; the connections to the spur lines at the inner ends of those platform would be worked by ground frames (released from the signalbox). Platforms 3 &4 would either, again, have a single running arm plus a route indicator or be splitting signals with two running arms - one to read to each of the departure lines - plus a disc to read to the Loco Siding. The awkward one is Platform 5d and here comes the risk of creating a forest unless you are prepared to accept it will only ever be used by a short train which can stand in rear of the facing point towards the yard area - I think that would be the optimum answer provided you can accept the restriction on train length. Exit from the yard would be similar but would use a short arm to read out onto the Relief Line. One or two points in teh layout would need ground discs at their toe for both shunting purposes and to assist in 'route holding' for train movements. Hi This is much appreciated Mike...I will digest all the info here ( it will take me a while to get my head around the requirements, terminology and type of signals you mention......I am prepared to accept anything to make this as easily workable (correct yes, but without cluttering the whole thing with signals and making the building of such into the layout - still fun) also using ground signals and short trains will be very acceptable.... Any info available would be gratefully received.... mid 1950's era will be fine... It is my intention to post images of the station / lines (as above) and photoshop signal post / arms on for discussion and comment before proceeding at all...and amend as required? Please keep the comments and info coming....I am never afraid (or take offence) of being told off or shouted at...I am totally at everyone's mercy here! Regards always... Bob Edited April 28, 2018 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted April 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Hi Bob, I made a signalling diagram for Sigtech's "Sproston", which is also 1950s BR(WR), a few months ago. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126780-layout-design-in-illustration-software/?p=3032108 It was produced with the invaluable help of Mike, The Stationmaster. Would you be interested in something similar for Cambrian Street? I'd be happy to have a go! Edited April 28, 2018 by Harlequin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold imt Posted April 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2018 Hi Bob, I made a signalling diagram for Sigtech's "Sproston", which is also 1950s BR(WR), a few months ago. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126780-layout-design-in-illustration-software/?p=3032108 It was produced with the invaluable help of Mike, The Stationmaster. Would you be interested in something similar for Cambrian Street? I'd be happy to have a go! Bob, Just say "yes". His work is just magnificent and clearly neither you nor I are good at drawing signals! A "proper signalling diagram right round past the loco yard would really encourage the comments (I think anyway!) and help ypu get a better idea of what's where and HOW you might operate it all. Iain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Hi Bob, I made a signalling diagram for Sigtech's "Sproston", which is also 1950s BR(WR), a few months ago. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126780-layout-design-in-illustration-software/?p=3032108 It was produced with the invaluable help of Mike, The Stationmaster. Would you be interested in something similar for Cambrian Street? I'd be happy to have a go! Hi Phil.... I would be delighted if you would be so kind as to produce something for the layout....I cannot put down in words how much I have appreciated everyone's input and kindness that has been generated from any request..... So please yes, your assistance would be invaluable to me... Kindest regards Bob Edited April 28, 2018 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 Bob, Just say "yes". His work is just magnificent and clearly neither you nor I are good at drawing signals! A "proper signalling diagram right round past the loco yard would really encourage the comments (I think anyway!) and help ypu get a better idea of what's where and HOW you might operate it all. Iain. Hi Thanks Iain.... I always knew that RMweb was a site where members could ask for assistance, but I have been bowled over by everyone's knowledge, skills and above all willingness to help... Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 Evening all.... Here are a couple of images of the station from approach and departure...just for info.... and yes that is sunshine streaming across the layout from the westerly aspect as an Unfamiliar Frying Object appeared in the sky at about 1900.....after a wet, raw and cloudy day here....! May add where I think the signal posts go but will certainly be guided by you kind guys.... Regards always...keep safe guys... Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Some oddly located trap points in there, the three I can see seem to be unneccesary, I can't see if the neccesary ones are there. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Some oddly located trap points in there, the three I can see seem to be unneccesary, I can't see if the neccesary ones are there. Regards Hi Keith Thank you for your posting, I can see and acknowledge that in hindsight that there may be errors in their positioning, if I feel brave these could be removed... I appreciate everyone's comments....keep them coming please... Regards Bob Edited April 28, 2018 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Here is your sketch showing passenger lines in red and required traps in blue. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted April 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Hi Bob, The first thing I'll do, then, is try to translate your trackplans and photos (very useful thanks!) into a long thin schematic just showing the trackwork and significant buildings without any signalling. I'll post it in this thread for you to approve (we might have to go through a few versions to get it right) and after that we can add the signalling. OK? Edited April 28, 2018 by Harlequin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Here is your sketch showing passenger lines in red and required traps in blue. Regards traps.jpg Hi Keith.... So do appreciate the help here.... Hopefully here I have placed where I have traps....I can see the error of my ways... The line circled in green is no longer a passenger line only for goods use now.... The purple circles indicate the position of existing traps.... Orange where I would need to insert... I know that many novice modellers such as myself don't include them as standard practice on a layout.....I tried to incorporate them but failed to recognise their correct role..sorry....I could reposition any or all, insert or completely remove as required...would appreciate guidance as always Regards Bob Edited April 28, 2018 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 Hi Bob, The first thing I'll do, then, is try to translate your trackplans and photos (very useful thanks!) into a long thin schematic just showing the trackwork and significant buildings without any signalling. I'll post it in this thread for you to approve (we might have to go through a few versions to get it right) and after that we can add the signalling. OK? Hi Phil... You don't know how much I appreciate your assistance and all the guys on here that are contributing to this... Please ask if you require photos of any particular area, I have stumbled so badly like so many novices through not planning thoroughly enough....this is all my own fault....particularly not drawing up a detailed plan beforehand was a major error on my part....what an idiot I am I can see and acknowledge that now..... Kind regards always... Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Here is my quick sketch of the signalling required in my view. The goods yard frame has been ignored as I don't think it's required. The sketch is taken from your first diagram but I note from one of your later posts that what you call platform 5 is fenced off. I also think that the lines running in would have been a normal double track. I can only think of Bala to Bala Jcn that had a main line and a relief line on an otherwise single line railway. (Edited to provided a slightly less hasty diagram and to correct various errors I made! ) Edited April 29, 2018 by flyingsignalman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 20180428_221154.jpg Here is my ( very) quick sketch of the signalling required in my view. The goods yard frame has been ignored as I don't think it's required. The sketch is taken from your first diagram but I note from one of your later posts that what you call platform 5 is fenced off. I also think that the lines running in would have been a normal double track. I can only think of Bala to Bala Jcn that had a main line and a relief line on an otherwise single line railway Hi... I am so humbled from everyone's kindnesses being shown.....thank you Keith this is much appreciated.... Yep the original platform 5, has been discarded as an operational idea just used in the goods area as a siding perhaps....this is a 4 platform station now...it was in my 'muddled' early thinking that originally this station would have been a double track, but now traffic has dwindled to a point where the powers at be have made it a downgraded single track Regards Bob Edited April 28, 2018 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Hi... With regards to the incorrect trap points..... To lift them I presume (thinking off the top of my head) I would need to saw through the fishplates at the rail joints unpin and then insert a short length of track to rejoin / fishplate together...? Regards Bob Edited April 28, 2018 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted April 29, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 29, 2018 Hi Bob, Here's the first draft of just the passenger areas of the station in schematic form. I think I have the topology correct. I don't think I've caught up with everything that others have been saying so there are no doubt some discrepancies. [Click to enlarge] I've shown the double slip next to the pilot loco siding as a pair of points because that fits best in the straightened out format. Maybe there's a better solution. I suspect that the goods yard would have been unsignalled and omitted from the signalling diagram - so I haven't shown that yet. I haven't shown all of the traps that have been discussed yet. I think that connecting the goods yard to the passenger lines using a pair of crossovers (as shown) would remove the need for separate traps at those locations - but I'm not an expert! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Hi... With regards to the incorrect trap points..... To lift them I presume (thinking off the top of my head) I would need to saw through the fishplates at the rail joints unpin and then insert a short length of track to rejoin / fishplate together...? Regards Bob Looking at your photos I would expect you can remove the three redundant traps without needing to saw through fishplates, can you not just push the fishplates back at one end. But if you can't do that then yes, cut through them. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Hi Keith.... So do appreciate the help here.... Hopefully here I have placed where I have traps....I can see the error of my ways... The line circled in green is no longer a passenger line only for goods use now.... I have modified the drawing to revert platform 5 to the goods yard area. The purple circles indicate the position of existing traps.... Orange where I would need to insert... Bob I have numbered the traps so I can comment easier. 1. You have it so OK. 2A. redundant as the end of the Double slip shown as 2B acts as a trap. 3 and 4 redundant as internal within goods yard area. 5. trap is formed by the existing turnout. 6. Required to be added as you have shown. 7. You have it so OK. 8. Nothing to add as the trap formed by existing turnout. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted April 29, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 29, 2018 (edited) Here's version 4, with station approaches, carriage loop and loco facilities (again not fully shown in this diagram because I think they would not be signalled): [Click to enlarge] I worked out a way to show the pilot loco spur double slip and that helped to compress things a bit. I think what I've shown is largely in line with Keith's suggestions regarding traps except for the spurs between platforms 1 and 2 (Traps 7 & 8 by Keith's numbering). I think Keith is saying that neither of them is needed and if I don't have to include them in the signalling diagram it would make life easier! But it's up to you... P.S. I've still shown Platform 5 as "passenger", not goods, because it has a direct connection to platforms 3 and 4 and it looks a lot like a parcels bay to me... Let me know what you want. If you know the name of the next station up the line I could show that. Similarly, if the overbridge has a name. Edited April 29, 2018 by Harlequin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 IMHO the trapping arrangement on the two spurs between P1 and P2 is incorrect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 Here's version 4, with station approaches, carriage loop and loco facilities (again not fully shown in this diagram because I think they would not be signalled): CambrianSt4.png [Click to enlarge] I worked out a way to show the pilot loco spur double slip and that helped to compress things a bit. I think what I've shown is largely in line with Keith's suggestions regarding traps except for the spurs between platforms 1 and 2 (Traps 7 & 8 by Keith's numbering). I think Keith is saying that neither of them is needed and if I don't have to include them in the signalling diagram it would make life easier! But it's up to you... P.S. I've still shown Platform 5 as "passenger", not goods, because it has a direct connection to platforms 3 and 4 and it looks a lot like a parcels bay to me... Let me know what you want. If you know the name of the next station up the line I could show that. Similarly, if the overbridge has a name. Thank You... This is stunning work.....and much appreciated.... Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 (edited) Here's version 4, with station approaches, carriage loop and loco facilities (again not fully shown in this diagram because I think they would not be signalled): CambrianSt4.png [Click to enlarge] I worked out a way to show the pilot loco spur double slip and that helped to compress things a bit. I think what I've shown is largely in line with Keith's suggestions regarding traps except for the spurs between platforms 1 and 2 (Traps 7 & 8 by Keith's numbering). I think Keith is saying that neither of them is needed and if I don't have to include them in the signalling diagram it would make life easier! But it's up to you... P.S. I've still shown Platform 5 as "passenger", not goods, because it has a direct connection to platforms 3 and 4 and it looks a lot like a parcels bay to me... Let me know what you want. If you know the name of the next station up the line I could show that. Similarly, if the overbridge has a name. Hi Phil.... P5 could well be designated as a parcels platform yes....the next station on the line would have been Bwlchllan ......The bridge would be....... Llangeitho Road Cheers Bob Edited April 29, 2018 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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