R3390TTS and R3602TTS Questions

[Art Dent]

Ok, so some Hornby TTS questions ...

 

My son has just purchased R3602TTS (Class 43 HST 'Valenta' Powered ) Swallow-liveried HST.

 

He had also previously bought the R3390TTS (Virgin-liveried Class 43 HST with MTU engine sounds) originally with the aim of applying Swallow livery.  This was before Hornby announced that they would be bringing out a Swallow-liveried example.

 

Questions.

 

1) In both the R3390TTS and R3602TTS sets are BOTH decoders (in the power car and the dummy) locomotive sound decoders or is there a locomotive sound decoder in the power car and an accessory sound decoder in the dummy?

 

2) He wants to swap the bodies of the VTEC power car and the Swallow dummy so that he has a Swallow-liveried power car at both ends of his formation.  This is (I assume) simple to do.

 

Can he swap the decoders from the VTEC power car nd Swallow dummy cars as well (otherwise he's have a Valenta at one end and a MTU at the other).

 

3) Assuming that the decoders in power car and dummy are identical (i.e. both locomotive sound decoders), how do you set both with the same DCC address (with one end 'in reverse' w.r.t. the other) so that when going forward, both ends respond at the same time but one has the daylight running lights (headlights) and the other the two red tail lights?

 

I know you could do this as a 'consist' thereby retaining independent control of each power car should you wish, but he only wants to run the HST as a 'comlete train'.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Art

[Phil S]

If you bought the VTEC with TTS you may wish to check the operation of the DCC and sound on a couple of DCC systems - AND physically rotating the  engines on the track so that they are pointing the opposite way:   these were amongst those models with a problem batch of TTS decoders which needed to be programmed by Hornby - I recommend you then contact the Hornby Service Department before making any alterations to the models ......  and they will arrange to reprogram them for you.  The symptom is complete lack of response in one orientation  - despite the fact that it is an ac signal and ought to respond equally in both orientations !

The problem does NOT show up when used on a Hornby Select, or a Roco Maus2 - but does on a RocoMultimaus and Z21 and many other systems (by other reports - but I have not tested them)

 

Yes both Power Cars have sound.

[Art Dent]

If you bought the VTEC with TTS you may wish to check the operation of the DCC and sound on a couple of DCC systems - AND physically rotating the  engines on the track so that they are pointing the opposite way:   these were amongst those models with a problem batch of TTS decoders which needed to be programmed by Hornby - I recommend you then contact the Hornby Service Department before making any alterations to the models ......  and they will arrange to reprogram them for you.  The symptom is complete lack of response in one orientation  - despite the fact that it is an ac signal and ought to respond equally in both orientations !

The problem does NOT show up when used on a Hornby Select, or a Roco Maus2 - but does on a RocoMultimaus and Z21 and many other systems (by other reports - but I have not tested them)

 

Yes both Power Cars have sound.

 

 

Hi Phil,

 

Your reply is confusing me.  The VTEC model works flawlwssly on my NCE system - the sound and lights work as expected.  The Swallow-liveried HST also works as expected.

 

My query regards swapping the body of the VTEC power car with the Swallow-liveried dummy car - so that he has two power cars in his HST rake, one at each end as per prototype.

 

The problem is that the VTEC power car has the MTU sound files whilst the Swallow-liveried HST power car has the Valenta sound files .  He would like both power cars in his rake to have the Valenta sound files - hence my query (1) as to whether the decoders in the power cars and dummy cars are identical (i.e. BOTH locomotive sound decoders) or whether one is simply an accessory sound decoder (if such a thing exists).

 

If both power car and dummy as supplied are identical, then I can surely simply swap the decoder from the Swallow dummy car to the VTEC power car and swap the bodies over?

 

If the power car and dummy have different decoders as supplied, then the VTEC power car needs re-programming?

 

I've got that right haven't I?

 

Art

[Kaput]

The decoders from each set should be identical. You'll most likely need to change CV29 to reverse one of the power cars if you want to have a power car at each end as I believe the wiring in the dummy cars handles the direction normally.

Should really be no issue with swapping the body shells around, don't think the model has been retooled in any major way between the two releases.

[Art Dent]

The decoders from each set should be identical. You'll most likely need to change CV29 to reverse one of the power cars if you want to have a power car at each end as I believe the wiring in the dummy cars handles the direction normally.

Should really be no issue with swapping the body shells around, don't think the model has been retooled in any major way between the two releases.

 

Thanks Kaput

 

Just to confirm, you think that all four decoders will be the same - i.e both VTEC power and dummy cars and Swallow-liveried HST power and dummy cars all have the same (locomotive sound) decoder?

 

Cheers,

 

Art

[Phil S]

Reprograming the address of a pair of HST power cars is done simply by having both power cars on the programming track at the same time .... have them back to back as normal and you will then verify that the lights are paired correctly. 

 

IF AND ONLY I F the unmotored power car lighting is THEN the  'wrong way round' after a new address which involved changing CV29 ( ie from default 3 to 100+/127+... in most systems ) then EITHER reprogram the unpowered car CV29  OR the powered car's CV29 on their own... making tne value ODD not EVEN.... eg from 6 to 7 or 38 to 39.

If the dummy will not reprogram on iys own onyour system - change both together, and then change the powered car.

 

But as I said before - before risking voiding your warranty - DO CHECK the VTEC HSTs on another system! - physically rotating the loco by hand on the track between tests - [ in one physical direction it may not respond at all !!  ]    -the problem is well  known and reported on the Hornby website - the fix is quick and free once you have contacted Hornby service fepartmemt.  Rails of Sheffield took to selling the VTEC with the decoders removed last year.  

As models are produced in batches ... i expect ALL THE VTEC packs to have the problem... all mine did !!  I cannot give a list of which controllers do or do not reveal the problem - except those i have personally tested [ 12 of my TTS locos had to be returned (2x3 VTEC) ... realising the problem took much longer than 'tne fix' - once Hornby acknowledged it and had the fix.

If the 2 livery's of power car have different engines ..... then the decoders are specifically mtu or valenta .... but if the swallow came with sound fitted why the need to swap?... are your inclines so great that ypu need 2 actually poweted power cars ... or just sounding as such ? 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Phil S

[Ely_South]

Just FYI, I understand that the lighting assemblies differ between the dummy and power cars. If you're swapping the bodies between dummy and power cars, keep the lighting assemblies with their respective original chassis.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Art Dent]

Hi Phil,

 

Testing the VTEC HST's ...

 

Both power car and dummy show the following ...

 

FWD  Power car's daylight running lights and cab light are lit, dummy car's tail lights are lit.  Power car runs forward when throttle is increased.

REV  Power car's tail lights and dummy car's daylight running lights are lit.  Power car runs backwards when throttle is increased.

 

Physically turned both power car and dummy through 180 degrees.

 

FWD  Power car's daylight running lights and cab light are lit, dummy car's tail lights are lit.  Power car runs forward when throttle is increased.

REV  Power car's tail lights and dummy car's daylight running lights are lit.  Power car runs backwards when throttle is increased.

 

So, as I said in my post yesterday (#3 above), "The VTEC model works flawlessly on my NCE system - the sound and lights work as expected." 

 

I ran the same checks with the Swallow-liveried HST which also works as expected.

 

Re-programming the VTEC HST's ...

 

Since there is no motor load with the dummy car, I will first have to reprogram the power car's DCC address (e.g. from #3 to, say, #311) then leave the power car on the track and change the address of the dummy car (from #3 to #311) using '"Program on Main" since that allows me to reprogram a specific locomotive (or decoder in this case).  The "Use Program Track" doesn't allow this as it assumes there is only one loco (decoder) on the Program Track.

 

Once the dummy's address has been changed, I can test that both decoders respond to address #311 and that the lights work as intended.  If not, then the dummy car's CV#29 will have to be altered.

 

My son wants to have two power cars at either end of his Swallow-liveried HST formation.  He is planning to have a minimum of six Oxford Rail Mk3As (he's currently got 4) but was talking on Sunday of having the full 9 cars between each end (meaning that a single power car would have to haul the equivalent of 10 coaches) so I can see his logic.  The single power car might struggle to get to our fiddle yard which is up a 1 in 35 slope.

 

Simply swapping the swallow dummy car's body for the VTEC power car's would mean that at one end he's have the whistling Valenta power unit and the markedly different MTU power unit at the other.  I don't recall hearing the MTU units on the prototype but the Valenta sounds brought back memories!

 

@ Ely_South

 

The lighting assemblies in both the VTEC and Swallow-liveried HSTs are identical and both power car and dummy car have the same lighting assembly (with incredibly fine wires to two miniature pcbs in the front end - one for the head/tail lights and one for the cab light).  In other words all four ends of the two sets (VTEC and Swallow) are identical as far as wiring and layout goes.

 

The dummy car and the power car have different pcbs however (obviously the power car has two wires running from the pcb to the motor (marked M+ and M-).  The dummy car's pcb has no solder tabs for the motor.  Outwardly, the power car and dummy car's decoders look identical (but I haven't taken the opaque black heat shrink off them yet).

 

The bodies (VTEC and Swallow) are directly swappable - so no problem there.

 

Art

Edited September 24, 2018 by Art Dent

[Phil S]

Phil: What that test shows is that on your NCE system the problem does not appear - it may still be present - but if never used on a different make of controller, in which the problem is known to appear, it is not a problem ( but maybe in a few years time if you change controller,it will  - hence I advocate your checking it on a different system when possible  - knowing what to look for)

 

Programming both Power and Dummy together should not present a problem** - without a motor to pulse, the dummy should not send back any pulses to confuse your controller  - both decoders will receive and act on the same programming command at the same time.

Even in POM if that works on the TTS, it will program BOTH at once as they were both identified by the same address to start with - ie both from 3 to 311  or 3 to 253 (if using a 'Unit No.') - all the 'responses' coming from the 'power' car.

 

- But I use Roco Multimauses (or Maus 2 or Z21 or Massoth Dimax, perhaps even a Sprog2 for programming - on the program track  ( I prefer to program WITHOUT readback as it is faster, and I don't care what the old value WAS. _ I could use the Multimauses with a Roco MCP or Z21 and have readback - but I keep a plain Multimaus+Amplifier system for most programming including G Scale - and the Massoth Dimax - which reads back - for some locos  (The Multimaus in basic mode just ensures the current is within limits during programming, or produces an error code)

 

**An entire layout full of locos can be reprogrammed in 1 go to the same address if the pgm track is not isolated from the remainder

[cravensdmufan]

 

**An entire layout full of locos can be reprogrammed in 1 go to the same address if the pgm track is not isolated from the remainder

Indeed - happened to me twice!  25 locos reprogrammed in an instant!      Might sound careless but it's so easy to do!

 

I then purchased an NCE Program Track auto switch . Best £20 I ever spent for my system! 

 

Anyway, back on topic - very interesting thread.  Useful information, thanks.

 

I'm hoping to purchase the IC Valenta HST next week.

[Art Dent]

Phil: What that test shows is that on your NCE system the problem does not appear - it may still be present - but if never used on a different make of controller, in which the problem is known to appear, it is not a problem ( but maybe in a few years time if you change controller,it will  - hence I advocate your checking it on a different system when possible  - knowing what to look for)A

 

The only problem is that I don't have access to a different DCC system.  

 

I still haven't had an answer as to whether the decoder in both the power car and the dummy are the same (and, of course as to whether the decoders in last year's VTEC and this year's Swallow HST are the same).

 

I am assuming that Hornby have followed convention with CV 16, in that CV16 = 1 indicates a motor decoder, CV16 = 2 indicates a sound decoder and CV16 = 3 (or higher) indicates a function decoder.

 

I have yet to read CV7, 8 and 16 on the VTEC and Swallow decoders.

 

Art

Edited September 24, 2018 by Art Dent

[Art Dent]

Indeed - happened to me twice!  25 locos reprogrammed in an instant!      Might sound careless but it's so easy to do!

 

I then purchased an NCE Program Track auto switch . Best £20 I ever spent for my system! 

 

Anyway, back on topic - very interesting thread.  Useful information, thanks.

 

I'm hoping to purchase the IC Valenta HST next week.

 

Lovely looking loco (best livery IMHO) and the sounds of the Valenta so evocative of journeys by HST to London!

 

Maybe Hornby would re-program the motor decoder from the VTEC to have the Valenta soundscape.  Failing that, it looks like a Legoman Biffo decoder with the Valenta sounds!

 

Art

Edited September 24, 2018 by Art Dent

[Ely_South]

@ Ely_South

 

The lighting assemblies in both the VTEC and Swallow-liveried HSTs are identical and both power car and dummy car have the same lighting assembly (with incredibly fine wires to two miniature pcbs in the front end - one for the head/tail lights and one for the cab light).  In other words all four ends of the two sets (VTEC and Swallow) are identical as far as wiring and layout goes.

Interesting, as the lighting assemblies (power and dummy end) have different part numbers according to the service sheet. 

 

Historically (the versions with the awful spring connectors rather than wires), they certainly differed - They looked identical, but the terminals were wired in a different order. I can't tell you anything from experience about the specific models that you've got though.

 

Good luck

 

Rob

[Art Dent]

Hi Rob,

 

As you say, the service sheet that I found for the HSTs was 332B (dating from 2010 which doesn't list either R3390 or R3602) lists the lighting pcb for the power car as X9871 and the dummy as X9872.  Whilst I've not traced the wires, they look identical to the eye.  The only difference between the power car and the dummy in the VTEC units seems to be the main pcb.

 

The above service sheet also shows a small 'Contacts plate' (part no. 19, X9944) which I can't see - and looking carefully at the diagram again, it appears that the lighting boards have the spring contacts that you mention - so possibly the design has been tweaked for these later models and that would explain why the lighting boards appear to be the same (I mean why wouldn't they be as the operation is identical at each end of the HST set. Why design, fabricate and stock two different parts for the same job?)

 

The wires are incredibly fine and snap off at the point of contact with the lighting pcbs with the slightest provocation - not very robust. For some reason, the small cab light pcb is screwed in place with two short x-head screws.  The bulkhead at the back of the cab is also screwed in place with two small screws and also seemingly glued in - why? 

 

I would apply a small piece of black tack over the three wires (to clamp them in place) at the nose end to stop any movement there - the wires flex alarmingly when removing/replacing the body and even disconnecting the lighting plug from the main pcb doesn't really help due to the weight of the plug on the thin wires.

 

meanwhile, I'm waiting on Hornby Tech to get back to me with the answer to my query regarding whether the decoders are the same at both ends (I suspect they are).

 

Art

Edited September 25, 2018 by Art Dent

[RAF96]

Item 19 is on the right hand illustration of the service sheet at the left hand end of the main chassis.

 

Twin set decoders are identical as are retro-kit and factory fit decoders.

 

To get twin set lights correct the wiring at the aft end is contra normal logic else you would get 2 white or 2 red ends not the expected 1 white and 1 red end. All down to the pointy bits facing outwards and left rail becoming right rail if you turn them round.

 

Rob

Edited September 25, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[Ely_South]

The Hornby Service Sheet you're after is HSS 420 - here: https://www.Hornby.com/us-en/downloads/view/download/item/547 

 

R3390TTS parts are in the far right hand column. As Rob says, it seems to suggest that the lighting boards are different but the decoders are identical.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Art Dent]

Item 19 is on the right hand illustration of the service sheet at the left hand end of the main chassis.

 

Twin set decoders are identical as are retro-kit and factory fit decoders.

 

To get twin set lights correct the wiring at the aft end is contra normal logic else you would get 2 white or 2 red ends not the expected 1 white and 1 red end. All down to the pointy bits facing outwards and left rail becoming right rail if you turn them round.

 

Rob

 

@ RAFHAAA96

 

Hi Rob,

 

Sorry, my post wasn't clear.  What I meant to say was that I couldn't see this board in the locomotive (not on the service sheet) - my bad!

 

In red, ahh, yes, I see what you mean.  I would have thought that was sorted out with a simple re-wire of the plug (the yellow and white leads being swapped over at the No.2 end).  It doesn't help matters that all 5 wires (at both ends) for the two common negatives, one cab light, one headlight and one tail light, are black!

 

@ Ely_South

 

Thanks for the link to that service sheet Rob, I couldn't find it when trawling through Hornby's website this morning.  Interesting to note that on the new service sheet (HSS 420 labelled 2016-on) they show part no 15 on the diagram (which looks like a 'cut & paste' from service sheet 332B where it is labelled as part no 4) although it is labelled as a 'Seat Unit'. There is also the cab light on sheet 420 which looks like another 'cut & paste' from service sheet 332B (part no 18) only on sheet 420 it is simply unlabelled.  This is obviously incorrect as it shows the spring contacts.  Sheer laziness.

 

Art

Edited September 25, 2018 by Art Dent

[RAF96]

@art

Swapping over the white and yellow at the socket pins is exactly how I did it on my Class 395 Blue Rapier trailer car when I went from a single directional white light at each end to a white/red dual led. Altering the socket allows the decoder to be kept standard in case of future swaps, e.g. sound or failure, etc.

 

Black - the Hornby universal wiring colour code.

 

I am just about to start the task of installing NEM652 sockets for twin Valenta sound to my ringfield pair of early IC125 HSTs. I suppose I had better document it as I go for later reference by others.

Rob-H

Edited September 26, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[Art Dent]

Hi Rob

 

How smooth are your Ringfields?  I ask because by son bought an early 80's HST in Swallow livery (R336, Service Sheet 108) and the running was 'lumpy' at low speed even after servicing.

 

I looked at replacing the Ringfield with a Black Beetle motor bogie - but they seemed to be terribly hard (if not impossible) to get hold of when I was trying to do the conversion, so I opted for a pair of Tenshodo motor bogies instead - even though their slow speed running wasn't quite up to the Black Beetle as far as the internet went.

 

The Power Car was fitted with a Tenshodo as was the dummy - so now he has a power car at each end.  At low speed the running is a little jerky but better than the Ringfield.  

 

It looks like the Black Beetles are available once more - links https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=182_183&page=3 and http://motorbogies.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_24 although they are quite expensive.  The Tenshodo's are a little cheaper (link: http://motorbogies.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_22)

 

Hope this helps

 

Art

Edited September 26, 2018 by Art Dent

[RAF96]

Yesterday I serviced the ringfield 3-pole with new brushes and springs after cleaning the commutator. I swapped the traction tyre wheels out with geared solid tyre wheels - same part as used by the front bogie. Checked over the gear train for burrs, etc. Then I added a pickup to the geared wheel side of the motor bogie using a modified ESU coach lighting pickup screwed to the motor bogie frame at that side. No photos yet as they are on the other PC being built into a How-to for my web site conversion articles page. It seems to run smooth on the rolling road on DC.

 

Next is to add later twin pickups to the front bogie, add led lighting, then go onto to do much the same for the trailer car. I will use dual red/white leds for this one but in future the Black Kat lighting kits are good value and more versatile.

 

I need to source some decent speakers for the twin TTS decoder fit, but will use the standard 28mm round ones till then.

 

Edit: I have been referring to SS 106, 108 and 205 for the 3-pole motor. Locos are R069 and R070.

 

Edit again: In the end I fitted a CD motor. You can read about the full conversions - motor, lights and sound in articles 10 and 11 here ...

http://myweb.cytanet.com.cy/honnor/articles.html

Rob

Edited November 6, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[Johnfromoz]

Phil: What that test shows is that on your NCE system the problem does not appear - it may still be present - but if never used on a different make of controller, in which the problem is known to appear, it is not a problem ( but maybe in a few years time if you change controller,it will  - hence I advocate your checking it on a different system when possible  - knowing what to look for)

 

Programming both Power and Dummy together should not present a problem** - without a motor to pulse, the dummy should not send back any pulses to confuse your controller  - both decoders will receive and act on the same programming command at the same time.

Even in POM if that works on the TTS, it will program BOTH at once as they were both identified by the same address to start with - ie both from 3 to 311  or 3 to 253 (if using a 'Unit No.') - all the 'responses' coming from the 'power' car.

 

- But I use Roco Multimauses (or Maus 2 or Z21 or Massoth Dimax, perhaps even a Sprog2 for programming - on the program track  ( I prefer to program WITHOUT readback as it is faster, and I don't care what the old value WAS. _ I could use the Multimauses with a Roco MCP or Z21 and have readback - but I keep a plain Multimaus+Amplifier system for most programming including G Scale - and the Massoth Dimax - which reads back - for some locos  (The Multimaus in basic mode just ensures the current is within limits during programming, or produces an error code)

 

**An entire layout full of locos can be reprogrammed in 1 go to the same address if the pgm track is not isolated from the remainder

Sure enough, after hearing about this fault, tested my VECT pair of power cars and while they worked perfectly in all directions on my NCE, which I use for end to end running and programming, on my Digitrax Dc50 controlled continuous run layout I they would only respond in both directions with motor car trailing. Turning them around in the other direction produced no response whatsoever; totally dead. Given the symetrical nature of these models this is only a minor embuggerance in my view. Other views may differ.

 

Posted for the info for those using Digitraxx.....

[smokebox]

Contact Hornby. They are well aware of the TTS problem and have a fix for it. The decoders may need to be returned for reprogramming.

[Johnfromoz]

Contact Hornby. They are well aware of the TTS problem and have a fix for it. The decoders may need to be returned for reprogramming.

I dont deem it necessary. Tis but a minor inconvenience for me to reposition the power cars. Just posted to make others aware of issue with Digitrax controller.

[Art Dent]

My local model shop, Rails, have a Guagemaster Prodigy setup so I could drop them down there to test.

 

Only place I know that has several different DCC Manufacturer's Systems that you can swap between is Digitrains in Lincoln, but that's a bit of a haul from the capital of the Independent Republic of South Yorkshire!

 

Art

[Johnfromoz]

Obviously the direction thing is not just limited to the HST decoders - Justi installed another TTS chip for Class 31 in Hornbys detailed version, same issue with Digitrax DC50 control. Luckily I'm planning to switch to my powercab for control of the main layout so problem solved for me, but info provided for others. Too much hassle for me to send all my decoders away to Hornby in UK.