Guest Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 I have fitted some locos with stay alive,DCC Concepts decoders etc. When the locos hit a dirty bit of track or a dead spot they just shoot off at full speed , I thought they should just carry on at whatever speed they were running at to start with , well that's what I have seen on all the videos on YouTube , so am I missing something or is this right. Also when you lift the loco from the track while it is running nothing happens at all. Any help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Shouldn't do it. Presumably DCC Concepts instructions explain the settings you need to make the stuff work ? ( I find their documentation to be confusing and lacking in details, to the extent that I'm no longer reading it unless I really have to dig a friend out of a hole ). Common reasons for the behaviour you're seeing is that many Stay-alives are not compatible with DC running. So one needs to turn that off in CV29. But some makers do things differently..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 The instructions do not mention any settings for the stay alive. I am not sure if some of the CV settings need changing. DC running that's another issue I have with these decoders,they will not run on DC but I do have it enabled in cv29 so I will try disabling it and see if the stay alive works as I think it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Oh I forgot to say that the stay alive capacitor is there super high power ones,not the small ones the decoders came with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir TophamHatt Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Are the Lais decoders copies of the DCC Concepts ones? If so, it might be a problem that's carried over as my "test" lais decoder does the same when using power from the (home made) stay alive. Only one way though. Perhaps it's a dodgy decoder as I would expect a lot more talk if it affected all their decoders :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 The instructions do not mention any settings for the stay alive. I am not sure if some of the CV settings need changing. DC running that's another issue I have with these decoders,they will not run on DC but I do have it enabled in cv29 so I will try disabling it and see if the stay alive works as I think it should. Which is my point about DCC Concepts documentation. Attempts to be "helpful" and falls flat as soon as a technical detail is needed. Try putting CV29 back to not allow DC running. Or try phoning them - they offer telephone support. I'll stick with the better performance and documentation I find at Zimo and ESU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 With DC disabled the locos run for 14 seconds when lifted off the track which is quite impressive , however they still run faster than there original speed setting. When they locos hit a dead / dirty bit of track they still shoot off at warp speed 10 for a split second or so. Must point out though my track is kept pristine well as good as , there is just one iffy peco point that is my tester , for now anyway for testing stay alive, all other points locos run fine through them , even when not using DCC and on my DC control the iffy point is ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 With DC disabled the locos run for 14 seconds when lifted off the track which is quite impressive , however they still run faster than there original speed setting. When they locos hit a dead / dirty bit of track they still shoot off at warp speed 10 for a split second or so. Must point out though my track is kept pristine well as good as , there is just one iffy peco point that is my tester , for now anyway for testing stay alive, all other points locos run fine through them , even when not using DCC and on my DC control the iffy point is ok. All I can suggest is contacting DCC Concepts and finding out if there are any setting changes you should be making. The decoders I'd choose (eg. Zimo, ESU and CT when space is extremely tight), can have stay-alives fitted and wont' shoot off at warp speed. Instead, you'd be hard pressed to tell it had gone to "stay alive power" until that power drained away and the loco came to a stop. I've used TCS KA1/KA2 units attached to Zimo and ESU for various people, and can achieve running distances of a yard or more without track power. After demonstrating silly running distances, a CV setting is added to stop them running far without track power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Hi, I've just watched a DCC Concepts video showing locos said to be equiped with DCC Concepts high power stay alive go over dead pieces of track without surging. It does say in the webpage for the high power stay alive to turn off DC compatibility mode in CV#29. In the CV list for DCC Concepts decoders on Gaugemaster's website I could see no mention of stay alive settings. I'm guessing some DCC decoders may need Back EMF feedback to be on and adjusted to suitable settings in order to cope with the changes in voltage on the stay alive capacitor and keep the loco running at a steady speed. My suggestion is to: 1) check CV#10 Back EMF cutoff is set high enough for the speed you are running your loco at. Values of 126, 252 or 255 might be suitable for testing. 2) check CV#61 is set for Back EMF is On. 3) check CV#136 check Back EMF control is not set to turn off back emf when a common function button is pressed or enabled on the DCC system. 4) Test the loco 5) check CV#31 impulse stimulation level is set to max (this is a total guess as Impulse may be nothing to do with Back EMF). 6) Test the loco again. You may need help to set up these CVs. If you have a DCC System compatible with JMRI Decoder Pro and you have a suitable computer then Decoder Pro might be useful in setting the CVs. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Cheers for that info , I will give it a try tomorrow ( currently at work ) I do no CV 30 & 31 are set at default 3&10. I have sent an email to DCC concepts this afternoon so see what they come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Tried the above , made no difference. Had a reply from DCC Concepts , all they could say was ' have I removed the suppression caps ' so basically I give in , I won't be buying anymore of there decoders , unfortunately I purchased 5 and have fitted 3.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Tried the above , made no difference. Had a reply from DCC Concepts , all they could say was ' have I removed the suppression caps ' so basically I give in , I won't be buying anymore of there decoders , unfortunately I purchased 5 and have fitted 3.. Send them to me - they are brilliant. I have been using the DCC Concepts stay alives for a while now. If you want to use them with non-DCC concepts decoders as I do, you do need to wire them to Decoder positive (Blue) and ground (GND, which is not the same as Cap negative). Not everybody can do it because in some cases it involves soldering to the decoder PCB itself. So you need to be fast and accurate with a soldering iron. John K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 What settings do you use ? I know every loco/ motor is different. Why are my locos fitted with these surging to a high speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Tried the above , made no difference. Had a reply from DCC Concepts , all they could say was ' have I removed the suppression caps ' so basically I give in , I won't be buying anymore of there decoders , unfortunately I purchased 5 and have fitted 3.. Hi, Have you removed the suppression capacitors?. I hadn't thought of that when I replied. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 No suppression caps fitted. These are Lima locos with the cd motor conversion,run absolutely lovely on DC before converting to DCC and they run lovely on DCC too , it's just this stay alive surging , I have also fitted one of these decoders to a loco with the original Lima motor , wow what a difference,you wouldn't know it had the original Lima motor in it , it's as good as anything new I have bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 You mention using the 'CD motors' - similar to those of Modeltorque and Susu motors -:- have you done anything eg diode drops or resistance to drop the decoder motor output voltage nearer to that of the CD motor ? - I'm wondering if a combination of the efficient motor, and local stored charge, combined with back emf measurements might be swinging things back and forth a bit ? I know having either the diodes or resistor is 'wasting power' - and that the speed range can have been adjusted down with CV5 to match the motor efficiency / reduce the max speed - just wondering what combination is in place ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 No suppression caps fitted. These are Lima locos with the cd motor conversion,run absolutely lovely on DC before converting to DCC and they run lovely on DCC too , it's just this stay alive surging , I have also fitted one of these decoders to a loco with the original Lima motor , wow what a difference,you wouldn't know it had the original Lima motor in it , it's as good as anything new I have bought. Hi, This is a real long shot and you may not think it applicable but I have found a reference to cd tray motors having low current consumption compared to model railway motors. Looking at the DCC Concepts video of the high power stay alive powering a OO steam loco over a 4 metre long dead track I wonder whether your locos need that high power stay alive - do you have a small capacity stay alive you could trial instead?. Also the decoder's motor control algorithm may be fooled by the cd motors low power consumption but middling inductance - you could try varying CV#30 Impulse (stimulation frequency) to see if that helps. I haven't got a DCC Concepts high power stay alive and I'm not sure I've got a cd motor to test. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 No diode's or resistors used. Also one of the locos still has the Lima motor fitted,just the same with that model too. I did try the standard smaller stay alive capacitor at first when I 1st converted and that did nothing attached all noticeable. Could it be something with my controller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Actually thinking about it when I tried the smaller stay alive with a cd motor I had DC enabled,I did not know it had to be turned off until someone posted on here yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 No diode's or resistors used. Also one of the locos still has the Lima motor fitted,just the same with that model too. I did try the standard smaller stay alive capacitor at first when I 1st converted and that did nothing attached all noticeable. Could it be something with my controller? Hi, It could involve the controller or the wiring to the track. I don't have any of the locos in the DCC Concepts high power video so I can't test the current drawn at medium speed. I calculate to power a loco drawing 100ma for the eight seconds the steam loco took to traverse the 4 metres of dead track would need a capacitance of at least 0.15 Farads. I did a simulation of the power being interrupted to a stay alive capacitor of 0.15 Farads and the capacitor on the bridge rectifier. If the stay alive capacitor is directly connected to the bridge rectifier in the DCC decoder then an interruption of 400ms could cause a peak current of 2 Amps to flow (the internal resistance of the capacitors could make this higher or lower). Perhaps the DCC decoder struggles to keep the speed under control as the current falls and the voltage from the controller via the track comes back up to normal. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Bit of a learning curve here coming from 16mm live steam in the garden and n gauge , which was DCC but stay alive wasn't around then for 2mm to my knowledge anyway. I have a few more things I want to try at the weekend, I have a brand new Dapol cl73 00 gauge , that is fitted with a Bachmann chip , no stay alive , I will fit one of the DCC Concepts decoders and stay alive to that and see what that does as opposed to the Lima's I have been playing with. Also I will remove one of the super stay alive cap's from a Lima with CD motor and fit the standard cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Right to bring this topic to a close , been busy over the weekend and i can conclude that DCC Concepts Zen decoders and stay alive are no good at all with Lima/Hornby CD motor conversions , as i said a few days ago ,they just shoot off at full speed when a bad bit of track is encountered , however , i fitted one to a brand new Dapol cl73 and they work perfectly , loco carrys on at the same speed until good contact is resumed. These are the bigger super high power stay alive capacitors not the small standard ones which do not seem to do anything at all no matter what they are fitted to (not saying they dont, you just dont see anything). Thanks to all that posted help/suggestions etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir TophamHatt Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) Hmm. There must be more to this. Tried my home made super stay alive with a CD conversion Lima 156 using a Zimo decoder and it didn't shoot anywhere: [YouTube] [/YouTube] Yet if I change it to a lais decoder, it's like the beginning of a dog race as soon as power is lost. Although aren't the LaisDCC chips copies of DCC Concepts ones? If so, that would make sense as the copies will have unknowingly copied the bad code from the original. But then they seem to work okay with their own stay alives? Edited January 5, 2019 by Sir TophamHatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) Hmm. There must be more to this. Tried my home made super stay alive with a CD conversion Lima 156 using a Zimo decoder and it didn't shoot anywhere: [YouTube] [/YouTube] Yet if I change it to a lais decoder, it's like the beginning of a dog race as soon as power is lost. Although aren't the LaisDCC chips copies of DCC Concepts ones? If so, that would make sense as the copies will have unknowingly copied the bad code from the original. But then they seem to work okay with their own stay alives? When Lais decoders first appeared, they were suspected being copies of TCS decoders. From correspondence with TCS referred to on this and other forums, TCS seem to believe this to be the case. Whether this applies to the current Lais range I don't know as I don't buy Lais products. I would be very, very, surprised if DCC Concepts had knowingly copied TCS or Lais products as I don't believe that Richard Johnson would do that. He has his reputation to protect. He may have bought in DCC Concepts own brand decoders from Lais, or he may have commissioned them to produce decoders to his specifications and Lais modified items that they already made to suit, as in the past on other forums, IIRC, shortly before he launched his own brand of decoders he talked about making trips to China. But that might have been in connection with other products in his DCC Concepts range. Edited January 9, 2019 by GoingUnderground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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