Graham Radish Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Hello folks, Well i've got a pretty good idea in my head what i want to do on my 5ft 5" x 2ft 6" baseboard in N gauge, my question is, i was planning to build a siding with the purpose of programming only, can the program track be connected to the main with isolated rail joiners? or will i have to totally separate it from the main completely, i'm using the digikeijs dr5000 system with dr4088 block detector box. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Hello folks, Well i've got a pretty good idea in my head what i want to do on my 5ft 5" x 2ft 6" baseboard in N gauge, my question is, i was planning to build a siding with the purpose of programming only, can the program track be connected to the main with isolated rail joiners? or will i have to totally separate it from the main completely, i'm using the digikeijs dr5000 system with dr4088 block detector box. Thanks. Hi Graham, I think it depends. If the DCC command station was designed to tolerate the programming track output accidently being connected to the main track output then I think just using insulated rail joiners would be ok. I don't know if the digikeijs dr5000 system can tolerate the programming track output accidently being connected to the main track output. If you find it has that feature don't forget you need a break before make double pole double throw (DPDT) switch or relay to switch the 'programming' track between the programming and main output of the DCC command station. If the command station can't tolerate the two outputs being connected together there may still be a solution to moving trains across. It might be possible to have a short section of track (on a thin base) that you drop into a gap in the siding. It could have an electrical connector on the base to make the connections to the layout track. The short section of track/base could be on a string so it doesn't get lost, it could even plug into a socket on the layout which could be arranged to provide an interlock*. * when the track/base is plugged into this special receptacle a relay switches the programming track over to the programming output of the command station. The short section of track (say 2 inches) method is what I'm thinking about using on a club layout - the programming track has been made a bit longer and place away from the main tracks and it is intended for an actuator to slide the track section in from the side when the train programming has been finished. The track section will have a foam block attached to one side so trains from either left or right cannot accidently try to bridge the gap when programming is going on. Regards Nick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 The suggestion above is somewhat overkill. All you need to do is isolate a bit of track from the main and feed it with the centre contacts from a DPDT switch with the programming track out put on one side and the main track on the other side. When you want to programme you simply drive or place the loco, coach or wagon you want to programme on the isolated section then throw the switch from main (which should be the default position) to programming. The rest of the layout is then ‘dead’ at that point and you can programme away quite happily, when you are finished you throw the switch back to main and drive off. You can make any section of track into the programming track, it doesn’t have to be a siding as you won’t be doing anything anywhere other than the programming track when you throw the switch away from main. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) The suggestion above is somewhat overkill. All you need to do is isolate a bit of track from the main and feed it with the centre contacts from a DPDT switch with the programming track out put on one side and the main track on the other side. When you want to programme you simply drive or place the loco, coach or wagon you want to programme on the isolated section then throw the switch from main (which should be the default position) to programming. The rest of the layout is then ‘dead’ at that point and you can programme away quite happily, when you are finished you throw the switch back to main and drive off. You can make any section of track into the programming track, it doesn’t have to be a siding as you won’t be doing anything anywhere other than the programming track when you throw the switch away from main. I totally agree with the above the only recommendation I would make is make sure the DPDT switch has a CENTER of position for extra safety/protection. If you had the piece of track long enough it could also be used for DC testing before a loco is decoder fitted provided that your physical electrical connection was separate from the rest of the layout. Personally I use phono plugs for connecting the electrical supplies to my layouts one for the main power bus wire and one for the track used for DC testing/DCC programing. Sound complicated but in reality it isn't. Edited January 16, 2019 by johnd 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 If you use a dpdt relay instead of a manual switch ( automotive types are quite cheap ..but just an example ). To change between normal and programmg outputs, Then you can have an LED indication warning of being in programming mode, and a default, normal condition, of non- programming mode with a happy green LED, and a flashing red LED? for programming ....these powered from 'half a dpdt' manual switch... Which uses the other half to operate the relay. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Vecchio Posted January 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 16, 2019 The suggestion above is somewhat overkill. All you need to do is isolate a bit of track from the main and feed it with the centre contacts from a DPDT switch with the programming track out put on one side and the main track on the other side. When you want to programme you simply drive or place the loco, coach or wagon you want to programme on the isolated section then throw the switch from main (which should be the default position) to programming. The rest of the layout is then ‘dead’ at that point and you can programme away quite happily, when you are finished you throw the switch back to main and drive off. You can make any section of track into the programming track, it doesn’t have to be a siding as you won’t be doing anything anywhere other than the programming track when you throw the switch away from main. Agree. I use exactly this method in one of the sidings. Works perfect and doesn't waste space as the siding can still be used when nothing needs programming (most of it you can do with POM anyway) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 The suggestion above is somewhat overkill. All you need to do is isolate a bit of track from the main and feed it with the centre contacts from a DPDT switch with the programming track out put on one side and the main track on the other side. When you want to programme you simply drive or place the loco, coach or wagon you want to programme on the isolated section then throw the switch from main (which should be the default position) to programming. The rest of the layout is then ‘dead’ at that point and you can programme away quite happily, when you are finished you throw the switch back to main and drive off. You can make any section of track into the programming track, it doesn’t have to be a siding as you won’t be doing anything anywhere other than the programming track when you throw the switch away from main. Actually, if wanting to protect the programming track outputs, it depends on the system maker's chosen behaviour. The danger comes if you can accidentally leave a loco across the insulated break AND the system has track power being pushed into the programming inputs. That will usually destroy the programming track read capability of the command station. Some systems (eg. Lenz) will turn off main line track power when using the programming track. So the risks of connection over the break are lower. Other systems (eg. Digitrax) leave track power active when using the programming track, so an accidental bridge over the track break could be much more serious. Personally, I'd do the belt&braces methods, because a idiot (me) might make a mistake when in a hurry. That means either "programming track without running connection to main line", or a double insulation section, which requires a four-pole switch. The latter has two lengths of track, each a loco long, the first is switched to "no power" when programming, the second to "programming track". Due to its length, a loco can't straddle the "no power" section and cause an error. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Fortunately the OP has a DR5000 not a Digitrax and that is how (most) people were answering the question 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Fortunately the OP has a DR5000 not a Digitrax and that is how (most) people were answering the question Yes but does the DR5000 tolerate connection to both running and programming connections without damage? Better to be safe and sure and have a totally isolated section as Nigel suggests. Norman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Dent Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) Don't know if these diagrams will help any ... I'm not familiar with the digikeijs dr5000 system with dr4088 block detector box - but if it is like the NCE system, it doesn't have a dedicated 'Program Track Output' like the Gaugemaster Prodigy Express Anyway ... Basic Programming Track Programming Track with Dead-Zone NOTE: the gaps indicate insulating fishplates / rail joiners (IRJs) This allows you to have a section BEFORE the programming track siding which is either connected to the main layout (as is the programming track) and completely isolated (creating a dead section) when the programming track is in use. This means that you can drive a loco onto the siding when the programming track (section 'A') is connected to the main layout (as is the centre isolating section - Section 'B'), throw the switch and then the programming track is connected to the program output, the centre section (Section 'B') is completely dead whilst the rest of the layout (Section 'C') remains powered at all times. The dead-zone means that there is no possibility of shorting the programming track with the main layout voltage (just make sure that the dead-zone is longer than the longest loco - or DMU unit) NCE PowerCab with SB5 Booster Programming Track If your system allows for a dedicated Program Track output, you could modify this circuit. The NCE SB5 booster doesn't have a dedicated programming track facility - but the NCE PowerCab does, so I aim to wire up the layout with the SB5 booster and have the PowerCab connected solely for Programming Track use. Hope these help, Art Edited January 18, 2019 by Art Dent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Don't know if these diagrams will help any ... I'm not familiar with the digikeijs dr5000 system with dr4088 block detector box - but if it is like the NCE system, it doesn't have a dedicated 'Program Track Output' like the Gaugemaster Prodigy Express .... DR5000 has a dedicated output … Nice drawings though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Dent Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 DR5000 has a dedicated output … Nice drawings though Thanks. They beat the 'back of a fag packet' scribbles IMHO Art Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) These complicated replies/solutions make me really glad I've chosen the Z21. For what it's worth to the OP, here's a sketch of how my programming track is wired to the Z21. Note - the programming track is just a section of the main running line, separated by insulting joiners at each end. There's no DPDT switch or any other kind of switch necessary, trains happily run across it all day long and there's no concern if a train stops halfway across the joins. The Z21 just handles it. For programming on the programming track, I just stop the loco there, when done just drive off, that's it. This could equally apply for use in a siding. Again no need for switches. The DR5000 is a modern piece of kit and I'd be very surprised if that doesn't handle things the same way. Cheers … Alan Edited January 19, 2019 by Alan Kettlewell 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I use an ECoS which has a separate programming track output which is internally connected within the ECoS to the main track out when not programming. Therefore my programming track is a siding where both rails are connected to the rest of the layout with insulated rail joiners. I just drive the loco into the siding, program it, and drive it out. I've no DPDT switches as the ECoS does that for me. The only thing that is essential is that I must make sure that the loco is far enough from the connection to the rest of the layout so that it doesn't creep across the join when programming. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Keith, that's how a Z21 works also Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Keith, that's how a Z21 works also I hsd read Alan's post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Dent Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 I use an ECoS which has a separate programming track output which is internally connected within the ECoS to the main track out when not programming. Therefore my programming track is a siding where both rails are connected to the rest of the layout with insulated rail joiners. I just drive the loco into the siding, program it, and drive it out. I've no DPDT switches as the ECoS does that for me. The only thing that is essential is that I must make sure that the loco is far enough from the connection to the rest of the layout so that it doesn't creep across the join when programming. That's why the inclusion of a dead-zone (see post #10 this thread) is a good idea IMHO. No possibility of shorting the programming output with the main then. Art Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) That's why the inclusion of a dead-zone (see post #10 this thread) is a good idea IMHO. No possibility of shorting the programming output with the main then. Art Thst's one advantage of using a siding, it'll stop when it reaches the buffers. If it moves the other way just keep an eye on where it is and if it is getimg too close to the isolation gap stop programming, drive it away from the gap, and resume programming. In 10 years I've not had a single mishap. Edited January 19, 2019 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Heres another thought, why not put a flag at each end of the programming track Some prototype railroads put(do not pass this point) flags or other indicators on the track Drill a hole between the sleepers, install a length of brass tube(ID1/16" to 1/8") , glue it in place, mount a micro Sw under the tubes end A rod (sized to be a firm fit in the tube) should be sufficient to stop a train from exiting the Programming track. If you put the flag in line with the rail gaps it will also stop trains from entering the programming track Put the flags into the tubes & push down until it engages the micro sw's, which will turn on the relay & connect the programming track to the DCC programming output A slight kink in the rod should tighten the rod in the tube to hold the micro sw on John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Heres another thought, why not put a flag at each end of the programming track dcc interlock.png Some prototype railroads put(do not pass this point) flags or other indicators on the track Drill a hole between the sleepers, install a length of brass tube(ID1/16" to 1/8") , glue it in place, mount a micro Sw under the tubes end A rod (sized to be a firm fit in the tube) should be sufficient to stop a train from exiting the Programming track. If you put the flag in line with the rail gaps it will also stop trains from entering the programming track Put the flags into the tubes & push down until it engages the micro sw's, which will turn on the relay & connect the programming track to the DCC programming output A slight kink in the rod should tighten the rod in the tube to hold the micro sw on John Love it. Or arranged so that when programming on the programming track is chosen, the flags pop up automatically. T'would raise a few eyebrows at exhibitions. Cheers .. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Yout could put the flags on Servos and have them pop up when you set the programing track 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 It brings to mind a good and practical use for a gated entrance to a private siding. Cheers ... Alan 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Dent Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) Thst's one advantage of using a siding, it'll stop when it reaches the buffers. If it moves the other way just keep an eye on where it is and if it is getimg too close to the isolation gap stop programming, drive it away from the gap, and resume programming. In 10 years I've not had a single mishap. IMHO the inclusion of a switched dead-zone/programming track completely eliminates the danger of a loco bridging the insulated fishplates/insulated track joiners (IRJs) because if the loco on the programming track moves towards the main and you happen to distracted for an instant *POW* and you've fritzed the command station. More likely, however, is a loco on the main track comes up towards the programming track and that bridges the IRJs. Same result - *POW* Merely using a siding doesn't mitigate against this happening however. A moment's distraction, a point thrown to put the loco to be programmed onto the siding not being 'returned to main' and a loco on the main heading towards the said point and before you know it. It may not have happened yet, but in my view, that's an accident just waiting to happen. A physical obstruction, like a 4mm 'banana plug' (possibly with a flag sticking out of the top) inserted at the end of the programming track (or the gate mentioned in post #22) would stop the programming track loco or the loco on the main from bridging the insulating gap, wit with my switched method you can't program on the program track without the dead-zone being activated - in other words it is 'fail safe'. Just my two-pennyworth you understand - YMMV Art Edited January 20, 2019 by Art Dent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) How do you "fritz" the command station when the programming track is at a lower voltage, not by much, usually 10-15%, than the command station voltage but is it the same DCC wave form and signal - plus most controllers switch off the main track when you have the programming track switched on. You are more like to do damage every time you run a point that is set the wrong way, drop something on the track or even do the infamous coin test. Serious overkill and scare tactics being banded about these days. Edited January 20, 2019 by WIMorrison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Dent Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) How do you "fritz" the command station when the programming track is at a lower voltage, not by much, usually 10-15%, than the command station voltage but is it the same DCC wave form and signal - plus most controllers switch off the main track when you have the programming track switched on. Iain, Bit in red ... You could fritz the Programming Output of your command station (or whatever is being used to program your locos). The idea is a modification of Brian Lambert's - argue with him if you like (link https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC_Page_1.html) Bit in blue ... Most DCC Systems indeed do, but if you would care to look at the last of my diagrams in post no.10 above, you would see that I am using two different systems - one for the main layout and one for the programming track - since the NCE SB5 booster doesn't have a programming track output (although it does have the ability to Program on Main - PoM), Serious overkill and scare tactics being banded about these days. Take the view that it is 'serious overkill and scare tactics' if you like - you don't have to implement it if you don't want to, nobody is forcing you. I hardly think the inclusion of a 4-pole, double-throw (4PDT) switch into the track feeds is 'serious overkill', however you might disagree with me on that. Perhaps the red and green LEDs to indicate the status of the programming track section are unnecessary, but I have included it as an 'aide-memoire' for me - the red LEDs indicating 'main track voltage present' and green a lower 'Programming Track Voltage Present' (for loco programming and decoder testing purposes). I'd rather include a £2.00 4PDT switch and a bit of extra wiring rather than find out the hard way and face repairing a command station or buying a new one. I know what solution to including a programming track on a siding that I will be implementing when the ground works are complete! Art Edited January 20, 2019 by Art Dent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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