brianusa Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 The topic title says it all! I have a Lionel Kinlet Hall with a worn screw head as the screw is stuck in the die cast body. The question is now, how can I get it out as its buried in a hole accessible only with a screwdriver and how can the body be removed? The body is still fixed by three other screws which are OK. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 I would CAREFULLY drill away the screw head (it sounds as if that is your only option) and then remove the other three screws, leaving you free to remove the body. Extracting the remnant screw shaft is a problem for another day... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guius Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I agree with Ray Von, drill the head off and hopefully you may have enough of the screw shank left in the body to turn out using locking pliers (Molegrips). Only other thing, do you know for sure the screw is a Philips and not a Pozidrive? (or visa versa) I ask this because the two heads have different internal profiles, and the correct driver will have more purchase. Best of luck Brian. Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 IIRC, true Philips screws are desired to limit torque; they're intended for special applications in delicate materials where over-tightening is a problem. If a Philips screw seizes, it can't easily be extracted even if the head is undamaged. Before drilling out the screw, gentle heating and some penetrating oil may help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo666 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Have you considered a Screw Extraction tool? Whilst specialised, and probably not something that you'd be using again (if at all), depending on how valuable the model is you may wish to purchase something like this even if it's for a single use. Then ebay afterwards. Screw Extraction. Another option would be to use a reverse thread drill bit and, as you drill into the damaged screw-head, you should reach a point where the reverse drill bit gets purchase and starts to unscrew the damaged screw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 28, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) Another vote here for the screw extractor - although only after trying WD40 or similar. Another option if you have adequate working space is to use a cutting disc to create a slot in the head which you can get a straight screwdriver into. Edit to add: You have brought a whole new world to light. I had no idea that Lionel had produced UK-prototype stuff. The loco looks pretty good apart from the coarse scale wheels. Can't say the same for the carriages! Edited January 28, 2019 by Joseph_Pestell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brigo Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 If this loco was made in the Far East then the screw head may not have a Philips recess and even less likely to be a Pozidrive. The Japanese have their own cross point design and the depth is less than you would find on a Philips. You can use a Philips screwdriver but you need to grind the point off a little. Brian 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Problem with "Philips head" screws is theres a stupid number of official and variant specifications. It looks like you may have to carefully drill it out as its deep in a hole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted January 28, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 28, 2019 Try tightening the screw, sometimes this can break the joint if it's reluctant to come out, and then undo. Also jewelers type screwdrivers aren't particularly good at extracting stuck screws, better to find one with a good sized head that allows you to apply pressure to the screw (to stop the driver slipping and rounding the head off) and torque to break the seal between screw and object. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Brian Which of the screws is it? I can then look at it on my loco, and see if inspiration arises. Kevin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Brian Which of the screws is it? I can then look at it on my loco, and see if inspiration arises. Kevin Good call! Maybe some images too for future reference? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 As an apprentice at Pye many years ago, I learnt to extract screws by 1) drill centrally into the head (easy with a cross point headed screw) with a small drill bit. 2) use this drilled hole as a pilot hole to guide a larger drill bit, to remove the head. Either use a bit larger than the head, or if accessing through another piece, where the screw is recessed, as large as possible. Reason for this is simple. As the drill is tapered to a point, it will go down into the thread portion of the screw, and you really want to only remove as much of the head as possible. 3) remove the other piece - breaking the now weak head off if necessary. This should leave the remaining screw with enough thread to grip with pliers etc to unscrew. Use penetrating oil (NOT WD40) to help if needed. Stewart 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 These locos have a Mazak body, and a fairly soft Mazak chassis-block, held together with what amount to self-tapping screws of fairly basic quality, which are very tight ‘out of the factory’, so it’s dead-easy to damage the heads. Stewart’s method is ‘classic’ and should work, but I’m wondering whether it might be necessary to resort to an “end mill” type dental burr. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew1974 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I have been able to extract worn Phillips head screws befor by putting an elastic band between the scre and thre screwdriver, it helps to maximise the grip of the driver on the screw. Might be worth a try if the screw is not completely smooth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Before drilling and if you have them suggest you try a small torx screwdriver or (Don't know what they are called) multi faceted screwdriver. I you press hard on them sometimes the multiple edges will grip the worn edge of the phillips screw. This has worked for me several times on both small and large screws 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 Brian Which of the screws is it? I can then look at it on my loco, and see if inspiration arises. Kevin You can see the mangled head on the top one, Kevin, and how its hard to get at. I tried tapping it and WD40 to no avail so drilling looks the best/only course. The other screws are OK so should be sufficient. Thanks. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 looks like paint on it, try working at that for a bit to break the seal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I disagree, the head is well and truly mooshed! I doubt if there would be paint on the underside of the model. Sometimes these manufacturers - in their wisdom - put adhesive onto the screw shafts, making removal a bit of a b-word. Result - as per your picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Grind the head off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 Grind the head off. Thought about this, Kevin, but right in front of the screw head is a moulded piece; not quite sure what its supposed to represent but it gets in the way. Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 That shouldn't present a problem with a drill bit of the same diameter as the screw head? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadway Clive Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Try using a small 'normal' single blade screwdriver to cut a groove across. I've done that successfully in the past. You'll get more purchase than with any cross type driver. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 Another vote here for the screw extractor - although only after trying WD40 or similar. Another option if you have adequate working space is to use a cutting disc to create a slot in the head which you can get a straight screwdriver into. Edit to add: You have brought a whole new world to light. I had no idea that Lionel had produced UK-prototype stuff. The loco looks pretty good apart from the coarse scale wheels. Can't say the same for the carriages! I could agree with your remarks but it must be taken into consideration that the whole set sold for considerably less than a locomotive from Darstaed, Ace or similar (said he defensively!) and was made by a US company with a long history for toy trains. Maybe not in the same league as others in the tinplate market but for the price a quite realistic loco with whistle and smoke, along with lighted carriages and while these may not be scale, they are an improvement on what might be available in this price range. Sadly, Lionel saw fit not to extend the line other than cosmetic changes, some for the worst and while quite common and discounted, they are hard to find these days. Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted January 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2019 The problem with the stud extractor suggestion is the minimum size of the stud extractor! The smallest one I have is for a 3mm hole which would mean the diameter of the stud/screw/bolt/shaft being extracted would probably need to be in the region of 6 mm diameter. Now look at the size of the errant screw on the photo and tell me, Will the extractor fit that size screw once the head has been drilled though? Since Brian has pointed out that it is a cheap and cheerful locomotive, I'd be minded to just drill the head of the screw off, remove the rest of the screws and the body and then file the stump of the broken screw flush and leave it at that. I'm sure the loco will not miss the screw: If it does you can then go down the route of drilling and tapping the body for a replacement in the form of a machine screw. If you really want to go to town, then drill out all the threaded holes oversize and make push fit inserts which have been drilled and threaded. Loctite these in place and insert machine screws to finish...................... Although that's probably ott+.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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