Unfitted Van Withdrawal dates?

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

Yet another question on the withdrawal of unfitted rolling stock on BR.  despite a few searches, I haven't come across an answer to this one.

 

I have read that BR began to purge its unfitted van stock from around 1957; the same article suggested that some of the larger and later unfitted vans were retrofitted with vacuum brakes so as to extend their lives and usefulness.  What I am curious to know is: when would the last of the unfitted big-four designed wagons have been withdrawn from service?

 

As ever, thanks in advance for any help given.

 

Regards and thanks.

 

Alex.

[Fat Controller]

I've seen a photo from the late 1960s of a few in service; IIRC, it was on one of the threads related to the Waverly Route. I suspect these wagons survived for a local traffic, where one or both ends involved wagon turntables. The vans that were retro-fitted with vac-brakes were the 10' wb ones in most cases.

[Dunsignalling]

By around 1960, pretty much all the suitable (i.e. 10' wheelbase) pre-1948 vans had been converted to vacuum brake by BR.

 

The number of 9' wheelbase vans (even fitted ones) began to decline steeply from that time, the process accelerated by most of the pre-group ones by then being over 40 years old, plus the general decline in wagon-load freight leading to BR needing fewer vans anyway.

 

The GWR and LMS in particular were still building such vans well into the 1930s, which had plenty of life left in them. There was still some useful service to be had from them into the 1960s and, as already cited, some short-distance work remained (where avb often didn't get connected up anyway). 

 

Some also hung around in ones and twos in local yards, being used to store sacks, ropes and tarpaulins. Others became "Internal User" vehicles, either within larger railway locations or after sale to rail-connected industrial concerns. Some extremely ancient examples that had been used as sack stores for decades came to light when big parcels depots began to close.

 

When the very last ones went is certainly post-1970, but they progressively disappeared from main-line goods trains through the 1960s, as these workings increasingly became "fully fitted".    

 

John

Edited August 28, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Brian and John, thanks for those responses; they've given me a number of other avenues to explore too.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

A few still appeared in revenue service in the early 1960s. Engineers use and internal users continued at least to the early 1980s. There was an Iron Mink parked on the Down side at Banbury station until at least 1978.

Eric

Edited August 28, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[Wickham Green]

The last big-four designed unfitted vehicles in revenue earning traffic would have been LNER 21T hoppers at a guess ..... unless you count the zillions of 16T minerals trundling up an' down the Valleys ( etc.etc.) which were derived from LMS & LNER designs.

[The Johnster]

BR, more or less immediately after nationalisation, formed an 'Ideal Wagon Committee', which sounds like exactly the sort of pointless talking shop people associate with inefficient nationalised industries, but which was in fact very effective.  It's enormous task was to identify just how many vehicles there were, how old, and in what condition, with the aim of culling those that were too far gone after years of neglect by impoverished companies and the war, and modernising those that could be of further use by fitting them with vacuum brakes, instanter or screw couplings, and usually 3 hole disc wheels.

 

Thousands of 7 plank XPO minerals were condemned almost immediately; there were about half a million wooden bodied minerals though and they could still be seen in the mid 60s.  Older general mechandise opens and vans were culled as well, as there were plenty of new ones coming into traffic while the wagon works caught up with the last big 4 orders, a process that continued well into the 50s.  BR also ordered some big 4 wagons in the period between 1948 and 50.

 

By 1950, the BR standard designs had been worked out and were starting to be built.  Only minerals were built unfitted in any quantity, but early examples of the standard general merchandise 5 plank open and 12T van were built unfitted.  These vehicles were built in large quantities, the bulk fitted of course.  General merchandise traffic went into decline over a decade from about 1957 to 67, which aided the modernisation of the wagon fleet; by my time as a freight guard in the 70s only the BR standards and post-war big 4 designs were still in general merchandise service, and very few of those were needed for wagon load or part load traffic.  Most big 4 designed vehicles carried post nationalisation builder's plates, though not the 'B' prefix to the numbers of course; the most common types were LMS designed sliding door vans and Southern designed 'Ashford' vans, including M prefix ones (don't recall ever seeing a W prefixed one, I do remember being confused by M prefixed ones).  All fitted and with instanter couplings and 3 hole disc wheels, and XP rated.  Only 16T minerals still had 9' wheelbases.

 

Unfitted general merchandise stock survived in departmental use, and some specialist vehicles survived in traffic; I regularly worked a Cardiff (Long Dyke)-Croes Newydd freight which included GW plated gunpowder vans for Penrhyndeudraeth Quarry.  There were GW and LNE bogie bolsters, lowmacs (macaws), and Weltrols and Trestrols were also mostly big 4 types.  IIRC the departmental 'Gane A' bogie bolsters used by Radyr PAD to transport track sections were of GW vintage as well; they certainly ran on GW type plate frame bogies.

 

Minerals or specialist wagons would likely be the last unfitted wagons in revenue service, with unfitted 16ton minerals probably lasting longer in revenue service.  Weltrols and the like gravitated to departmental use  The LMS coke hoppers lasted a good time in service as well, as did LNE 21T mineral hoppers.  Wouldn't care to speculate a date, but the running of the last regular traffic class 7,8, and 9 trains would be a ball park.

[hmrspaul]

13 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I've seen a photo from the late 1960s of a few in service; IIRC, it was on one of the threads related to the Waverly Route. I suspect these wagons survived for a local traffic, where one or both ends involved wagon turntables. The vans that were retro-fitted with vac-brakes were the 10' wb ones in most cases.

 

13 hours ago, Alex TM said:

Hi everyone,

 

Yet another question on the withdrawal of unfitted rolling stock on BR.  despite a few searches, I haven't come across an answer to this one.

 

I have read that BR began to purge its unfitted van stock from around 1957; the same article suggested that some of the larger and later unfitted vans were retrofitted with vacuum brakes so as to extend their lives and usefulness.  What I am curious to know is: when would the last of the unfitted big-four designed wagons have been withdrawn from service?

 

As ever, thanks in advance for any help given.

 

Regards and thanks.

 

Alex.

Official stock returns suggest only 224 ventilated unfit vans remained in revenue use in 10/9/66 with a further 62 "goods van". I've no idea what they are.

 

You need Bartlett, P., Larkin, D., Mann, T., Silsbury, R., and Ward, A. (1985) An illustrated history of BR wagons, Volume 1 published by Oxford Publishing Company, 192 pages. ISBN 0-86093-203-6

 

For a lot of what you are asking. And the much more recent series

Larkin, David (2006) Wagons of the early British Railways Era. A pictorial study of the 1948 – 1954 period. Pub by Kestrel Railway books. ISBN 978 0 9544859-8- viii+88pp.

Larkin, David (2007) Wagons of the middle British Railways Era. A pictorial study of the 1955 - 1961 period. Pub by Kestrel Railway books. ISBN 978 0 905505-06-7 viii+88pp

Larkin, David (2008) Wagons of the final British Railways Era. A pictorial study of the 1962 - 1968 period. Pub by Kestrel Railway books. ISBN 978 0 905505-08-1 viii+88pp

Larkin, David (2009) Wagons of the early British Rail Era. A pictorial study of the 1969 - 1982 period. Pub by Kestrel Railway books. ISBN 978 0 905505-10-4 viii+88pp

Larkin, David (2010) Wagons of the final British Rail Era. A pictorial study of the 1983 - 1995 period. Pub by Kestrel Railway books. ISBN 978 0 905505-17-3 08-1 vi+90pp

 

Yes, BR retrofitted tens of thousands of wagons with Vac brake between c1957 and 1959.

Paul

 

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Paul, thanks for that.  The bibliography (especially with ISBNs) is a great help; I have some wagon books but these will, not doubt, fill quite a few gaps.  I'll be raiding a couple of my usual suppliers over the comming weeks.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Richard_A]

Bumping this old thread, I'm building an Ian kirk gwr 10t ventilated can I bought in a job lot, I know some were fitted with vacuum brakes which, makes me wonder if any would be seen in the very late 60's? 

[The Johnster]

There were a few fitted XP-branded still about in the 70s, rka, so yes.  You’d need to do research into running numbers though.  

[Richard_A]

Thank you. 

[Richard_A]

Well an initial look suggests no 10t 9' wheelbase wagons still running in the late 60's, but I have a picture of one in a david larkin book dated 1969 which in condemned, but who's looking really? 

[The Johnster]

Sorry, misread the question, I was referring to 10’ wheelbase vans, not 10 ton.  My bad. 

[Richard_A]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

Sorry, misread the question, I was referring to 10’ wheelbase vans, not 10 ton.  My bad. 

I'll probably let you off.