NCE Power Pro - not reading CVs (am I doing something wrong?)

[Art Dent]

Hi Folks,

 

I already have a NCE PowerCab system.

 

I bought (s/hand) a 5A NCE Power Pro system and it doesn't seem to be reading CVs correctly,

 

Loco No.3 (short address active) is placed on the programming track.

 

Below is a comparison with both systems using the 'Programming Track'.

 

NOTE: Only one system is connected at any one time (I only have a single plug and pair of wires from the command station).

 

For the PowerCab NO Auto-Sw module is used, and for the PowerPro, the only connections between Command Station and track are 'Program Track'.

 

For the PowerPro, the Control Bus cable is plugged in

 

PowerCab                                                       PowerPro

 

Press 'Prog/Esc' then '4' on both.  Displays are as follows:

 

'USE PROGRAM TRACK'                                'USE PROGRAM TRACK'

 

Press 'Enter' on both

 

'1=STD 2=CV 3 =REG'                                    '1=STD 2=CV 3 =REG'

 

Press '1' on both

 

'MANUFACTURER = 151'                               'MANUFACTURER = 255'

 

Press 'Enter' on both

 

'DECODER VER: 089'                                       'DECODER VER: 255'

 

Press 'Enter' on both

 

'ACTIVE ADR: SHORT'                                      'ACTIVE ADR: LONG'

'SETUP ADDR 1=YES'                                       'SETUP ADDR 1=YES'

 

Press '1' on both

 

'ACTIVE ADR: SHORT'                                      'ACTIVE ADR: LONG'

SHORT ADDR:   003'                                        'SHORT ADDR:  255'  (yes, it says 255 for the SHORT ADDRESS!)

 

...

 

'PROG CV'                                                         'PROG CV'

'ENTER CV NUM:'                                             'ENTER CV NUM:'

 

Press '1' then 'Enter' on both

 

'CV NUM 001 = 003'                                        'CV NUM 001 = 255'

 

etc, in fact on the PowerPro ALL VALUES ARE 255.

 

Pressing '2' on the PowerPro to read individual CVs then '1' then 'Enter' to read the Primary Loco Address yields the value 255 again, pressing '29' then 'Enter' to read CV 29 yields the value 255 and pressing '30' and 'Enter' to read the Error Info again yields 255.

 

The Loco is Hornby's Class 60 'Drax' and is fitted with an ESU decoder which matches what the PowerCab is telling me.

 

In all other respects, the PowerPro works fine.

 

Any ideas??

 

Art

[Ray H]

Are you using the flat ribbon or the curly cable with the Power Pro?

 

I've just found the PowerPro manual on the DCC Concepts Website - https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/nce-owners-manual-powerhouse-pro-5-amp-system/

 

Are you getting the same displays as those shown in the manual - page 8?

 

Unfortunately the Power Pro that I'm used to using is at the club and I'm not there again until Thursday evening. Is it worth following the steps in the manual and checking whether the display you see is the same as in the manual?

[Art Dent]

Hi Ray,

 

Using the curly cord with the PowerPro and the flat cable with the PowerCab.

 

Yes, the displays are as on p8 of the link you posted.

 

In the meantime, I have fetched another loco out of storage (a sound-equipped one).

 

That reads the same as the Hornby Class 66 with the following differences ...

 

PowerCab reads Manufacturer = 151 and Decoder Version = 255, Short Address = 3 and Long Address = 5183

 

PowerPro reads Manufacturer = 255, Decoder Version = 255, Short Address = 255, Long Address = @383  (the same as the PowerPro reports for the Class 60)

 

Art

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

Sounds like the PowerPro may have a fault. Do you know why the previous owner sold it?

I have both (but don't use the PowerCab as a system any more). I have no such issue when reading back CVs. The fact you can see them suggests you have not done anything wrong, assuming you are using the separate program track outputs.

[Art Dent]

UPDATE:

 

I wondered whether a 'Factory Reset' as per page 13 of the PowerPro manual (page 20 of the link you provided) would make any difference.

 

Also put a new CR2032 battery in - same as before.

 

Wondering if I sould contact NCE for a new EPROM?

 

EDIT: Pete - got the unit from a well-known retailer who specialises in s/hand items, so no, I don't know why the origibal owner sold the unit.

 

EPROM has a label with " (c) 1994-2003 NCE Corp. 3 / 1 / 07 C " on it.

 

Large square CPU (?) has a lebel which says " 062017 " on it.

 

Art

Edited September 8, 2019 by Art Dent

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, Art Dent said:

Also put a new CR2032 battery in - same as before.

 

Wondering if I sould contact NCE for a new EPROM?

Battery? I didn't know it had one. 

 

I think contacting NCE may be a good option. Hopefully they will know their own kit better than anyone.

It will be interesting to hear what their customer service is like.

[Art Dent]

From what I've heard Pete, it is very good.

 

I have been using their ZenDesk to ask questions and I get replies usually within 24hrs and often quicker.

 

Booster circuit board has a label saying "062617" - I'm guessing the unit is relatively new from 2017??

 

EDIT:  Just sent a query to NCE's ZenDesk to ask if  (a) they know what the problem is, (b) if the EPROM may be faulty, (c) if the unit dates (as liiks likely) from June 2017 and (d) what my options are here in the UK if the unit needs upgrading/repairing.

 

Art

Edited September 8, 2019 by Art Dent

[BromsMods]

Two things to consider:

 

(1) I'm assuming the PowerPro has been transported at some stage in order to reach you.  It might be worth checking that the EPROM and its daughter board are correctly seated onto the main board.  To do this, remove the 4 screws at the bottom of the black box, slide off the cover and check that all of the pins on the boards are correctly seated and none of them are bent.  Yiu can also check the version of EPROM installed from its label. Assuming all is well replace the cover and the screws.

 

(2) I would advise making sure that with the PowerPro you use the two outputs TRACK and PROGRAM TRACK to separate pieces of track as the internal components of the PowerPro act as the Powercab AutoSW and switch power to the TRACK (Main) off and activate the PROGRAM TRACK output automatically when you select Use Programming Track from the PROG/ESC screen menu.

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards

 

John

[Art Dent]

On 08/09/2019 at 21:11, BromsMods said:

Two things to consider:

 

(1) I'm assuming the PowerPro has been transported at some stage in order to reach you.  It might be worth checking that the EPROM and its daughter board are correctly seated onto the main board.  To do this, remove the 4 screws at the bottom of the black box, slide off the cover and check that all of the pins on the boards are correctly seated and none of them are bent.  Yiu can also check the version of EPROM installed from its label. Assuming all is well replace the cover and the screws.

 

Hi John,

 

Bit in red.  I picked the unit up from my local shop (they are around 2 miles away).  Before it got there - who knows *shrugs*

 

I'm struggling to see the logic of the bit in blue.  If the EPROM wasn't seated correctly surely it woudn't work at all - rather than controlling locos without a problem just not reading back CVs correctly??  Still probably worth re-seating the pcb and EPROM (if only to scrape off any oxidation) - but I don't expect it will have any effect.

 

Bit in green.  See my post three above yours - specifically line 5 where it says "EPROM has a label with " (c) 1994-2003 NCE Corp. 3 / 1 / 07 C " on it."  I don't know if this is the most up-to-date version of the firmware.

 

Quote

 

(2) I would advise making sure that with the PowerPro you use the two outputs TRACK and PROGRAM TRACK to separate pieces of track as the internal components of the PowerPro act as the Powercab AutoSW and switch power to the TRACK (Main) off and activate the PROGRAM TRACK output automatically when you select Use Programming Track from the PROG/ESC screen menu.

 

Line 6 of my original post says "... and for the PowerPro, the only connections between Command Station and track are 'Program Track' ."

 

My OP also says that both the PowerCab and the PowerPro are using the Program Track  (one pair of wires with a plug at one end and wired to the track at the other are being swapped between the rear 'Track' socket of the NCE PCP Panel of the PowerCab and the right-most 'Program Track' output of the PowerPro.  Nothing else is connected.  The 'Program Track' that I am using isn't connected to anything else apart from the Command Station as it is on a completely separate piece of mdf around 600mm long.

 

Pressing 'Prog/Esc' then '4' on either hand-held cab takes you straight to using  'Program Track' mode.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Art

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Art Dent

[Phil S]

Just a guess...but 255 implies reading '1' back each pulse?? .. whilst the other unit is receiving (valid) 1's and 0's. .....to me this suggests   that the pulse current is too high for it to distinguish  between 1 and 0 levels?    ..... If you have a 100ohm resistance  to add in series with the programming  track it may give a better result ....this is the sort of solution suggested for Lens/Roco when they have reading problems ( often also associated with  larger scale motors.... Taking too much current from the programmer ....not the problem here.

 

Alternatively the opposite is the case and the 255 represents total failure to detect Amy read back. ( you could compare this by lifting the loco off, and seeing what number results  .... Until it stops with an error )

 

If you then determine this is a (read back fault) condition... Then it may be worth looking for a damaged sense resistor or similar .  ( and returning it to the dealer)

[Pete the Elaner]

9 hours ago, Phil S said:

Just a guess...but 255 implies reading '1' back each pulse?? .. whilst the other unit is receiving (valid) 1's and 0's. .....to me this suggests   that the pulse current is too high for it to distinguish  between 1 and 0 levels?    ..... If you have a 100ohm resistance  to add in series with the programming  track it may give a better result

That sounds very logical. Adding a resistance would be an easy thing to try & certainly would not do any damage.

[Art Dent]

Hi Folks,

 

Will give the 100Ω series resistance a try - as you say Pete, it can't do any damage.

 

The PowerCab is running off NCE's UK wall-wart which puts out 14.1Vdc o/c

 

The PowerPro is running off a Toshiba Laptop power brick which is putting out 15.74V dc  o/c (the PowerPro can accept up to 28V dc input)

 

Art

[Art Dent]

UPDATE:

 

I tried the a 150Ω resistor in series all I got this time was "CAN NOT READ CV" (I haven't got a 100Ω resistor)

 

Now tried with a total of four locos with four different decoders and three different decoder manufacturers (ESU Lokpilot and ESU Loksound 54-400, Lenz Silver and TCS M1)  - all give the same result.

 

All read '255' when reading CVs directly and all give "CAN NOT READ CV" with a 15Ω resistor.

 

The reply from NCE said, quote "Does this happen with ALL locomotives that you try? Some brands use decoders that you cannot read CVs back on reliably.  Does this also happen with decoders that DO  NOT have sound?
MRC, MTH, and Broadway Limited are the main ones that this happens with.  All programming for these brands should be done using OPS mode programming / programming on the main under full track power."

 

Art

[NIK]

Hi,

 

It may not be the cause of the problem but the minimum DC input voltage for a Power Pro 5 is 18 volts DC.

 

As mentioned changing the battery and reseating the daughter board (earth your hands first before touching the insides) may cause the Power Pro to work correctly.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Phil S]

Have you also checked 'no loco' on the programming track with both controllers to see if it is 000 or 255 that is then displayed ??? (it may be that the pulse represents a 0 and not a 1 read back ... if both then produce 255, then it implies that there is NO readback working on the 2nd hand controller >>> return to dealer ?  (You may have to remove the loco from the program track in the middle of the reading back pulses to defeat any 'no loco on track' detection from an open circuit.  Or try the resistor only  across the track with no loco.

 

There is now an NMRA recommendation for the maximum expected current during readback ... which is often exceeded by larger scale locos -- hence the advice from Lenz to add the series resistor to reduce the current 'into range' ... presumably a threshold which decides  high or low (1 bit A to D conversion)

A total failure suggests a failed sense resistor  (if you can see inside - is there a blackened or broken resistor connected to the program connection????

Your result suggests the opposite of adding the resistor is needed .. hence the probability of ta broken connection internally.

 

[Art Dent]

On 10/09/2019 at 15:58, Phil S said:

 

A total failure suggests a failed sense resistor  (if you can see inside - is there a blackened or broken resistor connected to the program connection????

Your result suggests the opposite of adding the resistor is needed .. hence the probability of ta broken connection internally.

 

 

Hi Phil - thanks for the suggestion.

 

Looking for a blackened resistor or broken wire/pcb track will be a bit tricky.

 

Inside the box are a total of three square green PCBs - approx 4" / 100mm to a side.  On the left (the BOOSTER side) there is a single board.  On the right (the COMMAND STATION side) there are two boards, one above the other with around an inch / 25mm gap between them.

 

The connections to the PROGRAM TRACK output are on the bottom board around 1.5 inches / 40mm from the edge - sufficiently obscured that it is difficult to see that part pf the PCB.

 

The construction is such that it doesn't look at all easy to take off the top PCB to see the board underneath.

 

[moan] Why do manufacturers insist on making things difficult to take apart/service? [/moan]

 

Art

Edited September 11, 2019 by Art Dent

[Crosland]

On 10/09/2019 at 15:58, Phil S said:

Have you also checked 'no loco' on the programming track with both controllers to see if it is 000 or 255 that is then displayed ??? (it may be that the pulse represents a 0 and not a 1 read back ... 

 

No loco detected could be either 0 or 255, depending on the programming algorithm used. It will be specific to each system.

 

On 10/09/2019 at 15:58, Phil S said:

There is now an NMRA recommendation for the maximum expected current during readback ... which is often exceeded by larger scale locos -- hence the advice from Lenz to add the series resistor to reduce the current 'into range' ... presumably a threshold which decides  high or low (1 bit A to D conversion)

 

Where is that specified? The service mode programming spec has not been updated since 2012. The only maximum is that the decoder must not draw more than 250mA, 100ms after power up. Even then the wording is too woolly to be meaningful.

 

The issue is usually the inrush current at power up (charging up stay alive capacitors) which leads to the recommendation of a resistor to limit the current or a "programming boosters". It's not difficult to design a system to cope, but a lot of DCC systems are quite long in the tooth

[Art Dent]

On 12/09/2019 at 10:54, Crosland said:

The issue is usually the inrush current at power up (charging up stay alive capacitors) which leads to the recommendation of a resistor to limit the current or a "programming boosters". It's not difficult to design a system to cope, but a lot of DCC systems are quite long in the tooth

 

Indeed, this is what NCE themselves suggested - until I told them that only one (out of four) different loco/decoder combinations was sound equipped (and none are stay-alive equipped).

 

As three of the four decoders are non-sound and by different manufacturers [ESU LokPilot, Lenz Silver and TCS M1], they have suggested returning the unit to them (in the US) for repair.

 

When pushed they gave me the name of a chap at Coastal DCC that I could contact: Kevin Dickerson kevin@coastaldcc.co.uk

 

Art

[Guest JiLo]

I hope you get this sorted, NCE systems are great, had mine 10 years until I tipped a glass of orange juice over the handset, still works but has been relegated to a test system now, replaced by a Roco z21

 

There are 2 things I'd never buy 2nd hand, a french car and a DCC system!  Been burned by the former, and know a good few who have been burned by the latter!

[Art Dent]

I've sent a message to Kevin - I just need to see what he says before going back to the retailer to see what they'll do.

 

I'm sure they'll sort it out - or give me a full refund if they can't.

 

Art

[Ray H]

5 hours ago, JiLo said:

I hope you get this sorted, NCE systems are great, had mine 10 years until I tipped a glass of orange juice over the handset, still works but has been relegated to a test system now, replaced by a Roco z21

 

There are 2 things I'd never buy 2nd hand, a french car and a DCC system!  Been burned by the former, and know a good few who have been burned by the latter!

 

You can get a replacement membrane from NCE but only buy one at a time or you'll get stung for VAT (reasonable I suppose) plus Royal Mail's £8 surchgarge (unreasonable to my mind) for collecting the VAT. Everything else should be easy to clean (carefully).

[Guest JiLo]

1 hour ago, Ray H said:

 

You can get a replacement membrane from NCE but only buy one at a time or you'll get stung for VAT (reasonable I suppose) plus Royal Mail's £8 surchgarge (unreasonable to my mind) for collecting the VAT. Everything else should be easy to clean (carefully).

I took it apart and cleaned it all up at the time, I did consider getting replacement parts but I'd been thinking of trying out the 'new generation' of DCC for a while so that was the time to get a new system.

 

The handset still works but I don't know if I would trust it for a full weekend's exhibition use as sometimes I have to repeat commands, saying that though, I've wired my layout up to be operated by Roco z21 or NCE so it's there for a back up!

 

Out of all the DCC handsets I've used, I've found the PowerCab to be the best by far, although the z21 App operation is much simpler