Dapol decoder not recognised by Sprog/JMRI

[Dava]

I have a Dapol gauge 0 Terrier which was factory fitted with a Dapol decoder, I assume an Imperium.

 

I programme decoders using a Sprog 3 and the JMRI program. To create a new loco entry in Decoder Pro, it has to recognise the decoder type and manufacturer. With this loco I get the message:

 ‘Found mfg 154 (Dapol Limited) version 4; no such decoder defined’

 

So without the decoder id in their database it wont set up a new loco in the roster. I cant find a workaround for this. I downloaded the latest JMRI 4.18 but it doesnt make any difference.  

 

Is there a straightforward way to create a new loco id in the roster? Or to find out the actual manufacturer of the Dapol chips? There must be plenty out there.

 

I did look in the JMRI decoder user guide under 'Creating A Custom Decoder File' but frankly wouldnt know where to start. I got the Sprog because I found it near-impossible to code on a NCE Powercab as you can't see whats already on the chip. 

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Dava

[Dava]

I found a basic workaround by copying another roster entry and modifying that, it still doesnt identify the decoder type. But at least I can cnotrol the loco.

 

[Crosland]

48 minutes ago, Dava said:

 

Unless it's a completely new decoder, it should be possible to select a similar decoder from the list of Dapol decoders. Maybe an earlier version.

JMRI relies on volunteers adding the decoder definitions so it sounds like it hasn't caught up yet. It might be worth asking on the JMRI users list https://groups.io/g/jmriusers/topics

Andrew

[Nigelcliffe]

As far as I can tell, there aren't any "Dapol" decoders listed in JMRI, so Andrew's route doesn't help in this case.

 

A quick read of the CV list at Dapol's website ( https://www.Dapol.co.uk/technical/DCC-Instructions/Imperial_Instructions1 ) shows a similarity with older TCS decoders, which then suggests its probably from the same place as Lais decoders.   So, pending someone doing it properly, one of the Lais or earlier TCS is likely to be a reasonable match.

 

Picking a random decoder is dangerous - different makers use CV's for different things, so you might think you're altering the lights and find out you've changed part of the motor control algorithm. 

 

 

Decoders in JMRI get added by people interested in doing it.  If owners of Dapol decoders don't do it, you're then left hoping someone else might do it as a favour.  That is helped if a decoder owner is willing to test the files as developed.  On a global scale, Dapol are a small-bit player, so not surprising that their stuff is overlooked. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Kaput]

Unless its one of the new Imperium3's then its a rebadged LaisDCC decoder so select one of those from the list. IIRC the Lais 860019 is the standard Imperium1.

 

The Imperium3's are claimed to be a completly new decoder - have to wait for confirmation of that.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Kaput

[Paul80]

Have you checked on the JRMI site to see if there is an updated Dapol Decoder Definition file available to install 

 

Paul

[Nigelcliffe]

9 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Have you checked on the JRMI site to see if there is an updated Dapol Decoder Definition file available to install 

 

 

Whilst generally good advice, its not going to help this time.    Dava says he's using JMRI 4.18.  That was released on Dec 23rd, and would have the latest decoders.  The full list of decoders available doesn't show anything from Dapol:    https://www.jmri.org/xml/decoderIndex.xml

 

There is also the comment from Kaput about the Imperium-3 being a "new decoder".  Dapol need to issue a CV list, or confirm no changes to previous CV list, as a first step before anyone could write a decoder file for JMRI.     As a quick development option, copying the Lais file, changing the maker number to Dapol, and getting users to provide version number (CV7) values for the file could work.

 

 

- Nigel

[Dava]

Thanks for the advice, guys.

 

I had found the Dapol technical info on the Imperium decoders : 

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/technical/DCC-Instructions/Imperial_Instructions1

 

It does include a list of CV settings. But no hint to the source. The decoder I have I suspect is an early one from 2018-19 but I'll admit to not aging removed the body to examine it. I did think that Dapol would have bought their chips from a mass-market producer but have only recently heard of Lais on here and not directly encountered one. Strange that the JMRI program didn't identify this. I will need to get the chip correctly identified [thanks Kaput] as I can't change the momentum settings and the loco is not finely controllable, it just runs. 

 

I am a lay and non-expert user of DCC, not an expert and don't program anything. The other Terrire I have, I installed a Zen chip + Stayalive and it runs beautifully. 

 

There are going to be lots more Dapol chipped locos, I have a Sentinal on order but don't know if this will be an Imperium 3 [if they are sound fitted] or something else. There is a big price disparity between the plain DCC and sound fitted factory prices so we'll wait and see. I understand it has a correct sound file which is why I'm paying the extra.  

 

Dava

[Kaput]

So far the Imperium3 seems to be for the new batch of Class 08 shunters to give enough functions for their lights. Nothing else Dapol produce (especially in 0 Gauge) needs that many functions (yet) so most likely you'll have an Imperium1.

DecoderPro literally just reads CV7 and 8 to determine make and model so even though the Dapol chips are LaisDCC they've had CV8 changed so DecoderPro can't tell they are Lais.

Had a check of latest version of DecoderPro and it shows the Lais models slightly different these days - the Imperium1 and 2 are LaisDCC 8x00nn - 6 Outputs

[Andymsa]

Although not an answer to the op question directly, recently when using decoder pro and a decoder could not be identified I used the Direct NMRA section at the top of the list. This allows a roster entry to be created.  

[grriff]

Like 'Andymsa', I've used the Direct NMRA option for decoders not in the list. The only disadvantage is that the JRMI software does not 'interpret' the CVs into the functions they perform, you just get a list of CVs and their values.  DCC Concepts produce a manual for their decoders https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/zen-black-decoder-manual/ which can be useful for other decoders.

[Butler Henderson]

On ‎27‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 13:16, Dava said:

I had found the Dapol technical info on the Imperium decoders : 

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/technical/DCC-Instructions/Imperial_Instructions1

 

It does include a list of CV settings. But no hint to the source.

That appears to be the same as the Lais list https://laisdcc.com/cvlist.pdf  other than the manufacturer CV is 134 rather than the 154 the Dapol decoder will be quoting.

 

Browse File Manager to your equivalent of C:\Program Files (x86)\JMRI\xml\decoders and find the file laisdcc, right click..open with.. choose Notepad .

 

In Notepad  -Edit - Find - type in 134, click on Find Next and it should find 134 in the line

<variable CV="8" readOnly="yes" item="Manufacturer" default="134" tooltip="Decoder Maker, Read Only">

Change 134 to read 154  - File - Save As - Dapol_LaisEdited (as something similar)

 

Decoder Pro should now recognise the decoder as whichever Lais Decoder it actually is.

[Nigelcliffe]

3 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

That appears to be the same as the Lais list https://laisdcc.com/cvlist.pdf  other than the manufacturer CV is 134 rather than the 154 the Dapol decoder will be quoting.

 

Browse File Manager to your equivalent of C:\Program Files (x86)\JMRI\xml\decoders and find the file laisdcc, right click..open with.. choose Notepad .

 

In Notepad  -Edit - Find - type in 134, click on Find Next and it should find 134 in the line

<variable CV="8" readOnly="yes" item="Manufacturer" default="134" tooltip="Decoder Maker, Read Only">

Change 134 to read 154  - File - Save As - Dapol_LaisEdited (as something similar)

 

Decoder Pro should now recognise the decoder as whichever Lais Decoder it actually is.

 

There are probably a couple more steps - rebuilding the decoder list, and editing the program files area is a bad idea as next time JMRI is updated, it can overwrite that directory.  

New user-edited decoders should go in the user-space, which on windows is something like c:\users\yourname\JMRI\[possibly system connection name]\decoders.

 

Having edited, and then tested the new file on a decoder,  if one then uploads it to the JMRI developer's website (below), it will find its way into a new release so everyone gets it - that's how open source development works !

Development website:   https://www.jmri.org/help/en/html/doc/Technical/index.shtml  and see paragraph on "contributing", and then follow the first option for creating an "issue" on GitHub. 

 

 

- Nigel

Edited December 29, 2019 by Nigelcliffe

[Butler Henderson]

33 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Having edited, and then tested the new file on a decoder,  if one then uploads it to the JMRI developer's website (below), it will find its way into a new release so everyone gets it - that's how open source development works !

The file would need some further work on it to upload as being definite as all it will do is report what the Lais decoder is whereas an uploaded Dapol file ought to report what Imperium the decoder is.

[markwilson]

Hi folks, this is a really interesting thread because it helps me understand what the DCC chip is in my O Gauge Dapol 08 (7D-008-013WDCC) - thank you! Dapol insisted it's not an Imperium 3 and that I have a Zimo MX644d. I'm pretty sure I don't, because my model is not sound-fitted. I've attached a picture of the chip that's installed, in case anyone can confirm, please? It doesn't have any markings but JMRI/DecoderPro reads it as Dapol Limited (154) Version 7.

I had some previous success getting this working in JMRI using a LaisDCC configuration; however I was finding that, if I changed the address from the default of 3 to something else, it stopped playing ball. Now I'm finding that the loco runs fine on DC, but on DCC it just sits there with lights on (including cab lights) and goes no-where (though I have managed to read all the values from the loco in DecoderPro and checked that I had the Dapol recommended CV 34=6, 36=4, 51=0, 52=16).

 

I'm trying out a Zimo MX634d in one of my other 08s... that's one for another thread, but does anyone have any tips please for getting the mystery (probably Imperium) chip to work correctly?

(The latest JMRI release has a couple of Dapol decoders in, but neither these nor the LaisDCC config seem to be working for me with my model). I'm happy to contribute to the project when I get a reliably working config but I'm not quite there yet!

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, markwilson said:

Hi folks, this is a really interesting thread because it helps me understand what the DCC chip is in my O Gauge Dapol 08 (7D-008-013WDCC) - thank you! Dapol insisted it's not an Imperium 3 and that I have a Zimo MX644d. I'm pretty sure I don't, because my model is not sound-fitted. I've attached a picture of the chip that's installed, in case anyone can confirm, please? It doesn't have any markings but JMRI/DecoderPro reads it as Dapol Limited (154) Version 7.

I had some previous success getting this working in JMRI using a LaisDCC configuration; however I was finding that, if I changed the address from the default of 3 to something else, it stopped playing ball. Now I'm finding that the loco runs fine on DC, but on DCC it just sits there with lights on (including cab lights) and goes no-where (though I have managed to read all the values from the loco in DecoderPro and checked that I had the Dapol recommended CV 34=6, 36=4, 51=0, 52=16).

 

I'm trying out a Zimo MX634d in one of my other 08s... that's one for another thread, but does anyone have any tips please for getting the mystery (probably Imperium) chip to work correctly?

(The latest JMRI release has a couple of Dapol decoders in, but neither these nor the LaisDCC config seem to be working for me with my model). I'm happy to contribute to the project when I get a reliably working config but I'm not quite there yet!

 

As JMRI is reading it as a Dapol decoder on CV7, then its a Dapol decoder (it is definitely not a Zimo, they'll correctly report as Zimo).  Which one, I don't know. 

 

 

And your MX634D - if some of the lights refuse to work, then it might need converting to a MX634C.  There's a CV8 reset which can make this change: writing CV8=3 gives a MX634C, CV8=4 gives a MX634D.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[markwilson]

13 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

As JMRI is reading it as a Dapol decoder on CV7, then its a Dapol decoder (it is definitely not a Zimo, they'll correctly report as Zimo).  Which one, I don't know. 

 

And your MX634D - if some of the lights refuse to work, then it might need converting to a MX634C.  There's a CV8 reset which can make this change: writing CV8=3 gives a MX634C, CV8=4 gives a MX634D.  

Thanks for this @Nigelcliffe - I’m new to DCC (though have been reading up on it for a while) and this is all really helpful!

[WIMorrison]

17 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

As JMRI is reading it as a Dapol decoder on CV7, then its a Dapol decoder (it is definitely not a Zimo, they'll correctly report as Zimo). 

 

I thought that DecoderPro would use CV8 to identify the decoder make? In a Zimo CV7 would only provide the major firmware version, however with a Zimo you can identify the specific decoder by reading CV250 🙂