Latest track plan for garage layout.

[Joseph_Pestell]

17 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Thanks!

 

There's no strong reason to lay the station out that way - just lots of small ones that make it feel right to me: It puts East on the right, you view the station from the South, sunnier side, the passenger entrance faces you, it's easier to fit the more complex pointwork on the right where you don't have to worry about the lifiting section.

 

The pointwork at the West end was much easier to lay out:

 

This is what the whole thing looks like:

 

Nothing is fixed in stone and some bits need more work. I haven't included the carriage sidings yet or the spur off the East bay that's shown on FlyingPig's drawing. I think it used to feed the parcels depot but I'm not sure what it should do now.

 

Note that there are both facing and trailing crossovers at both ends. The West facing crossover is in the non-scenic area, on the lifting section.

 

Minimum radius (the smaller red circles): 610mm

 

 

Nice work. Perhaps just move the left hand scenic break downwards so that the facing crossover is on scene.

 

As to fiddle yard, maximum length would be achieved by having two sets of terminating roads (let's call them "Penzance" and "Paddington" with just a route through between them for roundy-roundy running. This can be a bit of a faff when there are steam locos to be turned but easy with diesel locos and DMUs.

[Clagsniffer]

Just sat down from work and have been looking at the overall track plan again. Still really really pleased with it. I do like the sound of the extra siding for the east bay area as suggested by @Flying Pig, anything that increases shunting opportunities is a bonus. Was this just another parallel road? Or was it a parallel road with another short road jutting off it? Could possibly use it as a pilot stabling siding?

 

I also like the sound of the fiddle yard design suggested by @Joseph_Pestell with the dead end roads and having two through roads for continuous running. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 minutes ago, Clagsniffer said:

Just sat down from work and have been looking at the overall track plan again. Still really really pleased with it. I do like the sound of the extra siding for the east bay area as suggested by @Flying Pig, anything that increases shunting opportunities is a bonus. Was this just another parallel road? Or was it a parallel road with another short road jutting off it? Could possibly use it as a pilot stabling siding?

 

I also like the sound of the fiddle yard design suggested by @Joseph_Pestell with the dead end roads and having two through roads for continuous running. 

 

Just in case some folk don't understand what I meant, a diagram (not quite to scale).

Fiddleyard.pdf

[Clagsniffer]

Just browsing google images and came across this interesting picture;

 

https://i2-prod.plymouthherald.co.uk/incoming/article2435427.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_lk190115-tnt-1969.jpg

 

This is the type of scene I'd like to recreate on the model, parcel vans being unloaded in the loading dock (look like GUV's?).

 

A couple of questions regarding the image. Firstly is that a class 42 in the background? What are the brown vans, are they just standard bauxite box vans? Lastly, is that a Gresley buffet coach in the foreground, and what on earth would it be doing there?

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 minutes ago, Clagsniffer said:

Just browsing google images and came across this interesting picture;

 

https://i2-prod.plymouthherald.co.uk/incoming/article2435427.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_lk190115-tnt-1969.jpg

 

This is the type of scene I'd like to recreate on the model, parcel vans being unloaded in the loading dock (look like GUV's?).

 

A couple of questions regarding the image. Firstly is that a class 42 in the background? What are the brown vans, are they just standard bauxite box vans? Lastly, is that a Gresley buffet coach in the foreground, and what on earth would it be doing there?

 

The Western Region had several Gresley Buffets in the early 70s.

 

I was lucky enough to ride in one on a railtour from Paddington to Paignton (1975?). The railtour organisers had laid on some real ale.

 

Edit to add: Yes, a Warship on an up train.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell
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[Flying Pig]

3 hours ago, Clagsniffer said:

Just browsing google images and came across this interesting picture;

 

Very interesting - it shows that the track layout in 1969 was significantly different from the 1989 layout.  I'm still trying to work out what's what, but the ladder of slips is notable.  Certainly a couple of extra parcels roads.

 

Edit: ok here's a clearer view of the 1960s iteration of the east end throat:

 

https://i2-prod.plymouthherald.co.uk/incoming/article615715.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/1-Office-block-under-construction-1961-WEH_6_428.jpg

Edited February 7, 2020 by Flying Pig
Link added.

[Clagsniffer]

26 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Edit: ok here's a clearer view of the 1960s iteration of the east end throat:

Also an interesting picture. There’s certainly more roads than can be squeezed into the track plan! But maybe there is room for perhaps one more siding with a loading dock between the two tracks?

[Harlequin]

Update:

 

• Joseph's fiddle yard design with a few additions.
• Loading dock.
• Up headshunt becomes a loop that rejoins the Up line off-scene.
• Down headshunt shortened.

@Clagsniffer Would this work for you? Is there anything you really don't like? (Please tell me there isn't a second pillar on the bottom wall...!)

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Harlequin

[DCB]

Its getting to be a mis mash of steam era North Road and post 2000 North Road.   Back in 69 they WR had Westerns and operated steam era trains  shunting engines, local goods, parcels.  By 1980 it was all different, I guess the through platform was severed by then and many extraneous sidings trimmed.

Harlequin's plan is interesting but what value does the top right hand corner headshunt have?  It provides access to an off scene siding in the full size.  Probably best left out.   Likewise left side, why have a completely unprototypical tunnel to provide a scenic break to hide an underbridge where the full size has a viaduct.  Keeping the left end scenic with a scenic bridge has to be a better idea, it at least lets you bring locals from the tunnel right road and still access the platforms nearest the entrance,

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Update:

 

• Joseph's fiddle yard design with a few additions.
• Loading dock.
• Up headshunt becomes a loop that rejoins the Up line off-scene.
• Down headshunt shortened.

@Clagsniffer Would this work for you? Is there anything you really don't like? (Please tell me there isn't a second pillar on the bottom wall...!)

 

 

Occurred to me overnight (too much caffeine late evening) that the outer set of hidden sidings needs more roads than the inner set to allow for light loco and ecs moves to Laira.

7 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Very interesting - it shows that the track layout in 1969 was significantly different from the 1989 layout.  I'm still trying to work out what's what, but the ladder of slips is notable.  Certainly a couple of extra parcels roads.

 

Edit: ok here's a clearer view of the 1960s iteration of the east end throat:

 

https://i2-prod.plymouthherald.co.uk/incoming/article615715.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/1-Office-block-under-construction-1961-WEH_6_428.jpg

 

North Road must have undergone more changes than most. You might like to look up the SRS diagrams which show that ladder of three slips very clearly.

 

I have travelled quite a lot to Plymouth over the years to visit friends. I am trying to recall my May 1980 visit (friends' wedding). I think that the bays had been created then by splitting two through roads - but I am not sure.

 

Edit to add: I have just checked on old-maps.co.uk. They have a 1976-dated OS map which shows the through roads already split to provide the bays.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell
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[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Update:

 

@Clagsniffer Would this work for you? Is there anything you really don't like? (Please tell me there isn't a second pillar on the bottom wall...!)

 

 

I would guess that the garage is attached to the house as a lean-to. So it needs a pillar on one side (outside wall) but not on the side the house is.

[Harlequin]

6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Its getting to be a mis mash of steam era North Road and post 2000 North Road.   Back in 69 they WR had Westerns and operated steam era trains  shunting engines, local goods, parcels.  By 1980 it was all different, I guess the through platform was severed by then and many extraneous sidings trimmed.

Harlequin's plan is interesting but what value does the top right hand corner headshunt have?  It provides access to an off scene siding in the full size.  Probably best left out.   Likewise left side, why have a completely unprototypical tunnel to provide a scenic break to hide an underbridge where the full size has a viaduct.  Keeping the left end scenic with a scenic bridge has to be a better idea, it at least lets you bring locals from the tunnel right road and still access the platforms nearest the entrance,

Remember this is fantasy, this not Plymouth North Road in our universe. Overall it adheres to Flying Pig’s simplified 1989 plan with two turnouts replaced by a double slip for compression (not intended to look like earlier iterations of the station plan) and the loading dock added for interest. I think you could easily imagine that the loading dock remained in this universe a bit longer than it did at North Road.

So I don’t think it’s a “mish mash”.

We discussed the Up headshunt earlier and Claggy was keen to keep it.

The scenic break on the left definitely needs more work. I don’t know if the lifting section can be scenicked (made up word?). That’s up to Claggy, as is the lie of the land and the way the railway leaves the scene convincingly.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Harlequin

[Clagsniffer]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

@Clagsniffer Would this work for you? Is there anything you really don't like? (Please tell me there isn't a second pillar on the bottom wall...!

This certainly works for me @Harlequin, I like the idea of shuffling vans round the east bay area, and the design of the fiddle yard gives some nice length storage. I know I might be being greedy here, but is there anyway to squeeze one more road in above the top platform? then have the carriage sidings come off that? 

 

6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Harlequin's plan is interesting but what value does the top right hand corner headshunt have?  It provides access to an off scene siding in the full size.  Probably best left out.   Likewise left side, why have a completely unprototypical tunnel to provide a scenic break to hide an underbridge where the full size has a viaduct.  Keeping the left end scenic with a scenic bridge has to be a better idea, it at least lets you bring locals from the tunnel right road and still access the platforms nearest the entrance,

I said further up the thread that I quite like the top right headshunt/loop, it might not be prototypical, but I would use it to possibly stable stock waiting to be attached to trains or coaches that had been removed. I also have no issue with the lift out section being scenic, the scenery would have to be 'robust' to handle being lifted in and out. Not sure how I would put the railway on a bridge as the lift out section is level with the adjacent boards. Unless I lower the lift out section board down which would actually make fitting the board easier........................

 

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I would guess that the garage is attached to the house as a lean-to. So it needs a pillar on one side (outside wall) but not on the side the house is.

The garage is an integral garage, the wall with the pillar attaches to the next door neighbours garage. There is only one pillar thankfully, not sure of its purpose?

 

 

[halsey]

On 02/02/2020 at 12:21, Clagsniffer said:

I do like the look of that gentle curved effect, fits the space better and doesn’t look cramped. Would most of my layout plan need scrapped as it would no longer fit? 

 

I was "coaxed" into embracing large radius curves from the outset of my re-plan and I haven't regretted it as the layout has progressed - IMHO and based on knowledge gained no2 and no3 std rad curves should be hidden.

 

Will follow this with interest...……………..

[Joseph_Pestell]

15 minutes ago, Clagsniffer said:

This certainly works for me @Harlequin, I like the idea of shuffling vans round the east bay area, and the design of the fiddle yard gives some nice length storage. I know I might be being greedy here, but is there anyway to squeeze one more road in above the top platform? then have the carriage sidings come off that? 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Clagsniffer said:

 

 

There certainly looks to be enough space to put in an extra couple of tracks between the platform and the pillar. It would mean moving some of the other pointwork but that may be better anyway.

The facing crossover from the east is on the east side of the road overbridge (Sutherland Rd). So perhaps move that bridge and have Mutley tunnel as the scenic break into the fiddleyard with lots of streetscape to model on Mutley Plain.

[Harlequin]

50 minutes ago, Clagsniffer said:

I know I might be being greedy here, but is there anyway to squeeze one more road in above the top platform? then have the carriage sidings come off that? 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

There certainly looks to be enough space to put in an extra couple of tracks between the platform and the pillar. It would mean moving some of the other pointwork but that may be better anyway.

 

 

Yes, there is room and an extra loop on the up side would be good for lots of reasons. There will be slightly less room for scenery behind so a bit more difficult to disguise the proximity of the track to the backsene. What we currently call Platform 7 will have to be shorter.

 

Anyway, I'll draw something up along the lines of FlyingPig's full schematic and you can decide.

 

P.S. Good news about the singular pillar!

Edited February 8, 2020 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

Rather than another proper platform road, I would take a carriage siding off the headshunt line round the back of platform 7. It's nicely balanced as it is with two platforms in either direction and the bays.

I'd also use the through road as a siding to hold carriages which are being attached to up trains (not sure which way it would have normally been done, but I imagine a type 2 or 3 bringing a 3 coach train in from the west, loco uncouples then clears off to "Laira". Meanwhile a type 4 is on 3 more on the through road (might have space for more, but the numbers aren't important) which then shunts onto the coaches and heads off eastwards. If the change takes place in platform 7, then the same could happen using the headshunt/ back road carriage siding. There'd need to be a station pilot to remove coaches, and add them if they actually go on the back of the train.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Zomboid

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

North Road must have undergone more changes than most. You might like to look up the SRS diagrams which show that ladder of three slips very clearly.

 

Duh. Didn't think to look there as their plans are usually from a much earlier date, but would you believe they have the 1957 layout:

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwf/S944.htm

 

Notable that the platforms are not bidirectional, the bays still appear to be through roads and the middle road is a siding.  The pointwork suggests extensive shunting of carriages and vans but the end dock visible in the 1969 photo is not shown.  It would make an interesting but very extensive model.

 

 

[Harlequin]

Sorry to keep throwing plans at you, Claggy, but I'm having a lot of fun drawing them! Here's another update:

• Added the Platform 8 loop and adjusted the connections for P7. I've used Large Ys to keep the curves into P8 smooth and gentle. There are a couple of small discontinuities but I'll sort them out later if you want to go with this.
• The carriage sidings are in the same location as before but taken off P8 now and they are slightly longer. I think this is the best position - to leave room for scenery behind the station.
• The Up headshunt is also taken off P8. I haven't worked out a way to fit in the facing crossover from Up to the headshunt that's shown on Flying pig's schematic. It might be do-able but it's going to be tricky.
• I've tweaked the fiddle yard so that the storage sidings have headshunts allowing limited shunting without affecting main line running. There are also more spurs for loco stabling at "Laira".

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Rather than another proper platform road, I would take a carriage siding off the headshunt line round the back of platform 7. It's nicely balanced as it is with two platforms in either direction and the bays.

I'd also use the through road as a siding to hold carriages which are being attached to up trains (not sure which way it would have normally been done, but I imagine a type 2 or 3 bringing a 3 coach train in from the west, loco uncouples then clears off to "Laira". Meanwhile a type 4 is on 3 more on the through road (might have space for more, but the numbers aren't important) which then shunts onto the coaches and heads off eastwards. If the change takes place in platform 7, then the same could happen using the headshunt/ back road carriage siding. There'd need to be a station pilot to remove coaches, and add them if they actually go on the back of the train.

 

So agree. There is a lot of interesting operating potential to this layout.

 

I think the overnight sleeper from Paddington to Penzance used to drop a sleeping car or two at Plymouth so the occupants could have a bit more sleep. 

 

Back in 1980, I travelled direct to Plymouth overnight from Scotland (where I was working). I am not sure if there were sleeping cars on that service. I had a comfortable enough night with a compartment of a Mk1 SK to myself.

 

(I know we are not supposed to be thinking of it as North Road).

[Clagsniffer]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Sorry to keep throwing plans at you, Claggy,

No need to apologise, if you're having fun with it feel free to throw as many plans at me as you wish! I actually felt guilty suggesting alterations to your plan, didn't want to come across as ungrateful.

 

Really enjoying the look of the latest plan, I certainly can't see anything that needs changed or added. But  The fiddle yard looks like a layout on its own, love it!!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Once again referencing North Road more than we are supposed to...scenery behind the tracks may not be an issue. If the station is modelled as being on an embankment, most of the scenery will just be backscene. Look at Hills of the North (Shap) as an example of what I mean.

[Clagsniffer]

5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Rather than another proper platform road, I would take a carriage siding off the headshunt line round the back of platform 7.

i'm trying to visualise what you mean by this, any chance of a quick doodle?

 

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Once again referencing North Road more than we are supposed to...scenery behind the tracks may not be an issue.

I've looked at google earth and it appears to be mostly trees behind the platform area. I think my main scenery focus would be from the right hand tunnel upto the station. I'm thinking retaining wall from the tunnel mouth sloping down to track level with maybe low/half relief housing behind. But that's just a rough sort of idea.

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Clagsniffer said:

i'm trying to visualise what you mean by this, any chance of a quick doodle?

 

I've looked at google earth and it appears to be mostly trees behind the platform area. I think my main scenery focus would be from the right hand tunnel upto the station. I'm thinking retaining wall from the tunnel mouth sloping down to track level with maybe low/half relief housing behind. But that's just a rough sort of idea.

 

Like so many parts of the rail network, a lot of trees have grown up there. In the road where the mail sorting office is located there are some quite impressive "mansions".

 

In that part of Plymouth (to the east of the station,, mostly very similar terraces of houses which lend themselves well to that sort of low-relief treatment. It might be worth making a master and casting from it.

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Clagsniffer said:

trying to visualise what you mean by this, any chance of a quick doodle

Tricky with only my phone available, but I've downloaded a sketching app and maybe this will shed some light...

I'd imagine that it used to be platform 8, but has since been rationalised and is just a siding now, with no direct access to the up main.